The proper role and scope of government

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

OK open thoughts: society works best when it encourages people to have self-motivation and self-discipline. The ideal society is one where people value work and self-governance to the point where there is no need for much government involvement.

We know from seeing the actual results of public HOUSING that a lack of self-interest created bad citizens and shitty living conditions. One might say that public FOOD could have a similar result and could be disastrous.

But public EDUCATION hasn't worked that way; nobody sees it as a free ride of any kind. So perhaps there's some kind of essential difference.

Originally Posted by glatt

You still have to work (study) to get an education. Even if it is free. In fact, in college my parents and I paid for my education and I didn't work nearly as hard as I did for the free education I got in high school.

stream of consciousness posting follows. buckle up.

I completely agree with your opening statement UT. That's the best society. In your second paragraph I get tangled up trying to discern cause and effect. I don't think it's as simple as you've described, and I don't think it is just one linear arc, bad citizens because xyz, including public housing. I also completely agree with your closing sentence that there is some kind of essential difference.

...sneaking up on the thought so it doesn't escape....

I think it is imperative to consider, to invoke a person's self interest, and keeping in mind that most folks want to do the minimum needed to achieve their desires. The desires that really count are the ones that are internal. Things that are important to **ME**. Me. (well, you too, you get my point). It's possible to implant those desires. I was utterly indoctrinated when it came to college. College was, you know, like 13th grade. It was gonna happen, period. And it did. I have my parents to thank for that and I'm indoctrinating my kids that way too. Two down, one to go. Anyhow, the individual's self interest must be engaged.

oh oh as for motivations, I keep in mind that there are positive motivations I want to move toward and negative motivations I want to move away from. Also, there are motivations that require a certain chain of events. Like the chimp in the room with boxes and bananas hanging from the ceiling. ChimpV couldn't care less about boxes, but loves yummy bananas. So, now I'm interested in boxes as far as they can help me get to my goal, bananas. School was like that. School, meh. Money from job to get yummy fun stuff, yeah! Job requires education, so, ok, school, what[i]evar]/i].

I don't know how to make a more self-motivated, self-disciplined society. I agree more is better, but hells bells, lots of times, I can't even be more self-motivated and self-disciplined MY OWN DAMN SELF. I can barely get ME to work better on a consistent basis, I don't know how to make it happen for society at large.

BUT. I think at least one of the methods described earlier applies: find out something that doesn't work and try to eliminate that. Doing too much for a person DOES diminish their incentive to do for themselves. No question. I know this is true from my own life, from my life as a growing child, and my life as a parent. You betcha. Like before, there isn't a mechanical formula for the right answer to do I help or do I stand by (or better: How can I best help, even if it means doing nothing?).

Another thing that is important is knowledge. Knowledge starts with information. I can't know the whole world from my own empirical experience, I have to read, and listen and observe to learn at a pace that allows me to keep up like I want to keep up. I have a hungry mind. Back to society.... Access to information to make knowledge possible is crucial. PSAs to Don't be a Fool, Stay in School or This is Your Brain on Drugs or whatever.... I think people need facts to make informed decisions about what is needed (or even possible) when it comes to reaching their goals. Like home ownership instead of public housing, etc.

Ok, recapping. Self interest (both positive and negative). Information and knowledge. Avoiding "giving" too much; hunger (that's not phrased very well). A sense of what is possible; opportunity. What else nurtures a self motivated and self disciplined citizenry?