Jobs used as bargaining chip

[Trilby]

[quote=DanaC;754303]Merc, like any other soldier absolutely earned the right to veteran benefits[/DANAC]

yesh.

even soldiers who killed innocent civvies. Amen, dana. baby, you can't have it both ways. which I am thinking dana more and more wants.

[DanaC]

No. I just think that if you have a standing army, part of the social contract made with those soldiers is that they will be looked after later when they return to civilian life. It was one of the very earliest forms of citizenship based state responsibility and it remains important.

Soldiers do not choose the wars they fight or the enemies they face. We, the civilian world make that decision for them. Whether they are killing innocent civilians or armed enemies raises moral questions for us, in the civilian and political spheres to deal with. Soldiers just go where they are sent.

Unless you wish to dismantle the army entirely, that social contract should stand, regardless of the moral underpinnings of any individual war.

It's got fuck all to do with wanting to have anything both ways. If anything the view that soldiers should be somehow debarred from assistance because they killed innocets or because they fought an unjust war is wanting to have things both ways. Either we have armies of soldiers trained and conditioned to follow orders in the field of battle or we dont. Can;t have them and then expect them to have individual responsibility for the nature of the wars we send them to fight.

[DanaC]

Another thing to consider is that the majority of recruits to the army are drawn from the lower economic strata of society. The army has always (in the pre- and modern era) provided a route into training and education for people who would not have that opportunity otherwise.

My problem is, and always has been, with the politicians who make the decision to go to war. Though merc may not be an example of this, soldiers are and always have been primarily the same social class as workers.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Griff

The real founding fathers believe a standing army to be a threat to liberty.

I can appreciate your perspective, but
The founding fathers also kept slaves and didn't think women deserved the right to vote ... and and and ... Its a different world.

[Griff]

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

Ike recognized the need and the danger. The effect on our national spirit having already taken its toll, we live with a government capable of shocking violence compared to what middle American expectations were before WWII. This violence is sold to us with great moral surety. Based on our spending and debt the use of violence for national ends is regarded more highly than any other single economic or political value. It is a different world, one of our own making.

[Sundae]

I keep seeing this thread title and thinking of Steve Jobs.
Picturing him tied up in a basement somewhere, all skinny and grey.

It makes me sad.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by classicman

Think of him what you will, but he put his life on the line repeatedly for you to be able to come here and complain about him.

I don't agree with him all the time either, but the man deserves your respect for his service to his country.
Some of you seem to have forgotten that.

*Some* people enter the military with honorable, patriotic ideas.
*Some* people enter the military because it's a job that they are able to do, and it's their best option.
*Some* people enter the military because they have no other options.
*Some* people enter the military for other reasons.

They are all aware of what they are getting into, and are paid for their service.

You're right, they've all earned, more or less, a pension/benefits. In fact, if their service damaged them mentally or physically, we taxpayers have an obligation to provide a safety net - just as we do for non-military folks in similar circumstances. Having served in the military does not give anyone license to espouse the concepts that mercy does and continue to have my respect. If he had directly saved my life, I would be grateful to mercy, but still not respect him.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I don't think military service in and of itself means someone is worthy of respect. That said, I also don't think veteran benefits can be in any way compared to wider benefits for citizens. Veteran benefits are there to recognise and reward (and act as an incentive) for those who sacrificed their individual freedom temporarily and in some cases their lives, in service to their country.

The notion that he did all that in order for us to be able to have this discussion is a moot point. I'm really not at all certain that fighting most American soldiers (and British for that matter) have engaged in for the past half century had anything to do with American freedom.

Merc, like any other soldier absolutely earned the right to veteran benefits.

What is sad is that raising the next generation of Americans, often at the exoense of personal career fulfilment, or caring for elderly relatives (the nation's elderly) is not counted as service to the nation, regardless of sacrifice, personal or otherwise.

I just have to do nothing by bite my tongue and roll my eyes..... enjoy your freedom on our blood. It is our duty.. Your country men have bled to death for hundreds of years to allow you to make those statements and I hope all of their deaths were worth it for your sake. Remember that as you strike out against our sacrifice.......

[TheMercenary]

I did not die in these wars as many of you would have wished....

but a number of my good friends have. Sorry to disappoint. May all of you have the ability to voice your opinions and differences in an open and honest forum or media without interference from the state or any organization which wishes to squash your freedoms.

[Pico and ME]

.

[TheMercenary]

Silly cunt....

[Pico and ME]

You're so sensitive for such a classless jerk.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

You're so sensitive for such a classless jerk.

Please tell me your feelings are not hurt.....

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

I just have to do nothing by bite my tongue and roll my eyes..... enjoy your freedom on our blood. It is our duty.. Your country men have bled to death for hundreds of years to allow you to make those statements and I hope all of their deaths were worth it for your sake. Remember that as you strike out against our sacrifice.......

You're aiming that at me? I've posted that soldiers earn their beneifts and I'm the one you're pointing at?


Soldiers join up and go where their country sends them. They fight and die in the wars the civilian and political sphere choose for them. Whatever motivation those soldiers have for dong what they do: the civilians who sent them to war in Iraq (for example) were not doing so in order to preserve or defend America.


As to my own countrymen fighting and dying for hundreds of years. True that. But not so that I could have my freedom. Ok, you could possibly make that argument about World War 2. But that's about it.

Most of my countrymen who have died on the field of battle in the last two hundred years have done so to further the imperial adventures of the nation.

[Pico and ME]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Please tell me your feelings are not hurt.....

Not in the least bit. Its fun when I can do something that causes you to show your true colors once again. Thanks.