Osama Bin Laden is Dead!!!

[Uday]

Originally Posted by dmg1969

What I WANT is the ability to use unconventional methods to break these people and have them give up information which can potentially save thousands of lives!

I don't consider the techniques that I have heard used (making someone stand for many hours at a time, sleep deprivation or threatening their families with death) torture in the classic sense. And while waterboarding (simulated drowning) may be terrifying to the person on the receiving end, these methods are designed to not cause permanent physical injury. These methods are MAINLY psychological in nature.

Are you saying that you would be against these methods being used if they stopped another 9-11 here or in another country?

Yes. Torture is inexcusable. Any civilization that would tolerate it is unworthy of the name. There are some prices for safety that are simply too high...Not because of what torture does to your enemy, but because of what it does to you.

It is impossible to both torture and to be the "good guy". You have to choose.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by Uday

It is impossible to both torture and to be the "good guy". You have to choose.

Some of us disagree with that on a theoretical level. Unfortunately most of us don't trust our government or "deciders" any further than we can throw them so... guess we're all screwed.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Some of us disagree with that on a theoretical level. Unfortunately most of us don't trust our government or "deciders" any further than we can throw them so... guess we're all screwed.

You forfeit the privilage to complain when our citizens are tortured up to and including the "theoretical level" of torture that you choose to be acceptable for our enemy. If you think waterboarding an AQ operative is acceptable, you can't complain when dmg's mom or General Petraeus is waterboarded.

[dmg1969]

Let me, once again, remind you of what happens when radical Islamists are finished interrogating you...



Waterboarding and sleep deprivation don't seem so bad now, do they?

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by dmg1969

Let me, once again, remind you of what happens when radical Islamists are finished interrogating you...



Waterboarding and sleep deprivation don't seem so bad now, do they?

When you compare it to what the dredges of humanity do, hacking off hands and feet don't seem so bad, either, now do they?

We're supposed to be the good guys. We're not supposed to torture. That's what makes the bad guys bad.

[dmg1969]

From an article in The Washington Post titled "How a Detainee Became an Asset"...

"These scenes provide previously unpublicized details about the transformation of the man known to U.S. officials as KSM from an avowed and truculent enemy of the United States into what the CIA called its "preeminent source" on al-Qaeda. This reversal occurred after Mohammed was subjected to simulated drowning and prolonged sleep deprivation, among other harsh interrogation techniques. "

"KSM, an accomplished resistor, provided only a few intelligence reports prior to the use of the waterboard, and analysis of that information revealed that much of it was outdated, inaccurate or incomplete," according to newly unclassified portions of a 2004 report by the CIA's then-inspector general released Monday by the Justice Department."

Link to the entire artcle:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...T2009082804015

[tw]

Originally Posted by dmg1969

From an article in The Washington Post titled "How a Detainee Became an Asset"...

Information was so good that it took almost ten years to understand it? Of course not. Posted was a half story. Reality was so buried in myths and lies as to be all but useless. It took almost ten years and tens of millions of dollars to separate reality from the lies. Meanwhile, those who did not use torture had truth in less than one year - often in less than one month. Fine dinners more effective at extracting truths. A reality that cannot be understood when feelings replace facts and experience.

Zero reasons prove nothing useful from torture. Torture only muddies the waters. Torture makes finding truth nearly impossible. It took almost ten years to finally filter out reality because some idiot used torture.

Fine dinners do more to extract the truth. But that contradicts what a TV show called "24" taught our current flock of 'experts'.

[Uday]

Originally Posted by dmg1969

Let me, once again, remind you of what happens when radical Islamists are finished interrogating you...



Waterboarding and sleep deprivation don't seem so bad now, do they?

Yes. The bad actions of fanatics do not excuse anyone else's bad actions. Also, are you certain you wish to base your moral code by relating it to the actions of criminals?

[dmg1969]

Originally Posted by Uday

Yes. The bad actions of fanatics do not excuse anyone else's bad actions. Also, are you certain you wish to base your moral code by relating it to the actions of criminals?

That's part of the whole problem...you view them as criminals. They are not criminals, they are TERRORISTS. The guy who steals your car is a criminal. The guy who flies planes into buildings killing thousands is a terrorist. No wonder some of you want them tired in "criminal" courts as opposed to military tribunals.

I won't change your mind and you won't change mine, so we will agree to disagree on this one.

Hey, at least I give Obama props for getting the guy. That's something.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Uday

Yes. Torture is inexcusable. Any civilization that would tolerate it is unworthy of the name. There are some prices for safety that are simply too high...Not because of what torture does to your enemy, but because of what it does to you.

It is impossible to both torture and to be the "good guy". You have to choose.

Well said.