Obama Announces Re-election Bid

[Jill]

Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced

I dont dispute any of the above....until your conclusion.

PAYGO,if implemented fully and honestly, will prevent any future growth in the debt; it wont help pay down the current debt.

The Bush tax cuts for the top bracket are a significant contributing factor to both present and future debt and should be restored to pre-2001 levels.

The Bush Medicare Prescription Drug reform costs the taxpayers more than the Affordable Care Act ever will.

I'm all for getting out of Iraq immediately and finding the best way to transition out of Afghanistan asap.

Cuts to programs like Planned Parenthood, Head Start, education, workforce investment, etc. are ideological and counter-productive.

We should also eliminate corporate tax subsidies and corporate welfare to big oil, big agriculture, etc.

We should cut defense spending significantly.

We should raise the income base for FICA so that those making over $106K pay the same percentage as those under $106K.

We should reduce the rate paid to providers of Medicare Advantage.

All of the above would certainly prevent the debt from continuing to grow by $trillions/year and would even make a big dent in the current debt level.

We also need to continue to invest in education, health care, job training, transportation and infrastructure, alternative energy, r&d, etc all of which contribute to economic growth.

We cant continue to fund housing assistance programs at current levels that reward people (middle class) who made bad decisions in the past and/or programs that are ineffective.

AND we also need to make fiscally justifiable cuts to other non-defense discretionary spending and that means cutting some popular programs and eliminating others.

IMO, the choice is not between spending cuts or tax increases. It is a combination of both.

We agree on nearly every count. I apologize for not being more clear in my post.

Spending cuts are absolutely necessary! Required!

But the distraction is where the current Republican Leadership is claiming those cuts need to come from. The Pentagon budget is out of control. $4 billion in subsidies to the oil industry is outrageous. It's so much bigger than $375 million on health care for the needy, that I cannot believe we're actually talking about eliminating Title X funding as if it would make any difference whatsoever.

We need to cut waste and fraud in some of the programs, not necessarily the programs themselves.

As for the housing bailouts, I do part ways with you there. The notion that people were greedy and knowingly got in over their heads is yet another lie perpetuated by the Right to demonize people for their own political benefit and distract from what actually caused the real problem. I don't know why it's so easy to believe that individual home buyers were irresponsible, but hard to believe that there could be lenders who were irresponsible in their duty to disclose, and who actually sold people a bill of goods.

I am an extremely savvy contract negotiator. I read everything (yes, it took many, many, many hours to go through closing). I ask all the right questions. My husband and I had excellent credit (750 range). Our income was totally sufficient and then some. We had no debt. None. Not a vehicle, not a credit card, nothing. We were completely qualified for a conventional loan.

But after our earnest money was already paid, and one day before closing, all of a sudden our broker "sadly" informed us that he wasn't able to get us a conventional loan after all. The "best" he could do was an interest only 1st and an adjustable 2nd mortgage. We're ONE day before closing! We have NO WAY to go looking for another lender. And then, to rub salt in the wound, the "Good Faith Estimate of Closing Costs" that he provided us was anything but "Good Faith". Imagine our shock when we walked into the escrow office with a GFE of $10,000 in costs, and were handed an actual closing cost document with $20,000 in costs! $5,000 of that was a full point the broker took that he told us he we wouldn't be paying. And he was the only sonofabitch that wouldn't budge on lowering his fees to get the costs more in line with what he told us they would be.

And take a wild guess who he put our loans with. . .

IndyMac and Countrywide.

I didn't pick those banks. I didn't walk in and ask for a loan I couldn't afford. Yet here I was, forced into a position of either sucking it up, signing the documents and coughing up the extra cash, or losing our earnest money and the house! And then the banks bundled up our loan with a bunch of other loans, many of which ended up being bad, and sold them on the secondary market!

The only thing that separated us from many, many of the people who got sucked into this mess is that we were very, very lucky that we were able to refinance into a conventional loan within the first 2 years, because our home hadn't started losing value yet.

The hucksters at the banks and mortgage companies played dirty tricks with the housing market, but they were "too big to fail" so they had to be "bailed out". People who made HUGE mistakes in how they did business -- intentionally -- got bailed out. Our economy would have completely collapsed had we let that many large institutions fail.

I contend our economy continues to be at enormous risk as more and more individuals are unable to get out of these ridiculous loans into conventional loans and the market continues to be flooded with foreclosed homes and bankruptcies rise. If the people who actually caused this mess can be relieved of their financial burden (and even walk away with HUGE bonuses), then let the people who suffered from this mess be relieved of their financial burden.

Yeah, some irresponsible individuals will benefit from it, and on a gut level that feels wrong. But most individuals were ordinary people like me and my husband who were manipulated into bad loans by thieving lenders. Let them wipe their slates clean just like we let the banks do, stabilizing the housing market and the economy, and move forward from here with some new regulations that will prevent lenders from ever getting away with this again.

[Jill]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Nasty, demeaning comment by lookout123, followed by a dogpile of flint, merc, ug, classic, et al, on Jill in 3.....2....1......

Eh. I'm not worried. I can hold my own. Or choose to ignore them if I want. Don't forget, I've debated here before. And not without success.

[Happy Monkey]

Heh, I wonder if Obama deliberately timed the release of his birth certificate to after this book went to the printer.

[classicman]

Revenue needs to be raised - even if temporarily. Cuts need to be made and they will hurt - No one likes having the bottle taken from them.

Tax increases may or may not be necessary... Removing many of the loopholes that exist in the ridiculous system, many of which are applicable only to the wealthy, would surely make sense.
The Bush tax cuts - need to be modified - I think the $250,000 threshold could be changed to $3,000,000 or even $5,000,000 and still reap the vast majority of the intended purpose.

Corporate taxes need to be adjusted as well. Probably reducing the rates so that more companies will headquarter here again instead of overseas for lower rates. Additionally, the reductions/deductions should be adjusted so that they actually pay - something.

Cutting from defense ... Exactly who are we defending ourselves from, at this point, that warrants this amount of spending?
A good part of this is for many of our "friends" around the world, yes that includes Europe. Sorry we've been playing Daddy for far too many, for far too long. Delete this as well.

Start cutting aid from abroad. We need to take care of our own. Why are we giving money to over 150 other countries when we need it here at home?

Cutting waste and fraud from entitlement programs. Increasing the efficiency and reducing the massive BS that a citizen has to go through to utilize the services as well. I know this is contradictory sounding, but it is insane the levels of crap and the hoops one must go through to actually get the services some of us pay for.

Refund Planned Parenthood. WTF was that about? (excellent points Jill, I totally agree)

That leads me to another thought - EVERYONE MUST PAY - Period. I don't care if you make $10,000 or $10,000,000 - you need to contribute something.

Iraq - we gave you as much, actually more than we could afford. Oh and yeh - we'll be getting some serious discounts on oil, thanks.

I disagree with F&B on medicare - The Docs are getting spit at this point. (10-15 cents on the dollar.) From personal experience, I have yet to find anyone who will accept it. To this point, it has been nothing but a worthless placeholder in my wallet. Further, I suggest that every physician be required to accept a % of or a set number of patients on medicare/aid. This should have been done in the HCRA.

Somehow we need to change the situation so that more people are contributing. Having so many not doing so is unsustainable.

Very good posts/points by both F&B and Jill. I've enjoyed reading them. :bigthumb:

[Jill]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Heh, I wonder if Obama deliberately timed the release of his birth certificate to after this book went to the printer.

Oh yay, another conspiracy theory! I was hoping we'd get another one of those!

And thanks, classicman. I disagree that the threshold needs to be so high on reinstating prior tax rates, but at this point it's a moot talking point anyway.

As for those making $10,000, they pay plenty of taxes, just not necessarily federal income taxes. They still pay sales tax, gas tax, Social Security tax, State income tax, and even property tax (even if they're renting, as their rent covers the owner's property tax liability).

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Jill

As for those making $10,000, they pay plenty of taxes,

Perhaps - thats been a talking point all along for the D's -
Our country needs more and everyone needs to help a lil more.
Go team America.

[TheMercenary]

You can't run up the credit cards and then cry fowl because you don't have enough money in the bank. It is a typical Demoncrat ploy, spend, spend, spend.... tax. Sounds like the days where the Airforce would build a base and put in elaborate quarters and a great O'Club and then cry off because they didn't have enough money for the runway. Blaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by BigV

Hey mercy--

which of these three sources is the most credible with respect to facts about the Affordable Care Act? If you please, I'd also like to know why you prefer the one you choose.

number one: http://www.thedemocrat.com/site/news...&PAG=461&rfi=9

number two: http://research.lawyers.com/blogs/ar...ed-Income.html

number three: http://www.healthcare.gov/center/aut...ntribution.pdf

Not a single one of them. I choose none of them.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by BigV

Hey mercy

Do you understand that the Federal Reserve doesn't work for "Obamy"? He doesn't permit or prohibit any of the actions of the Federal Reserve.

It's true, they both have the best interest of the country at heart, so, often their interests and actions are aligned.

Absolutely.

You do realize that the governers are appointed by the President. And if you don't think they choose people who think like minded about their ideas of the direction they want to see currency regulation go then you have been fooled.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

You can't run up the credit cards and then cry fowl because you don't have enough money in the bank.

If you are going to use the household analogy, the proper analogy is that you have a family that has maxed out its credit cards while also choosing to go from full time employment to part time hours so they can spend more time on the golf course.

That family needs to go back to working full time, and also cut up their credit cards and cancel the cable and stop eating out in restaurants.

[TheMercenary]

Agreed. And to really make it they need to start growing some food and save, not spend for things they can't afford.

[TheMercenary]

Hey, look who just voted against the unions!

http://articles.boston.com/2011-04-2...ns-health-care

[Jill]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

You can't run up the credit cards and then cry fowl because you don't have enough money in the bank. It is a typical Demoncrat ploy, spend, spend, spend.... tax. Sounds like the days where the Airforce would build a base and put in elaborate quarters and a great O'Club and then cry off because they didn't have enough money for the runway. Blaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....

Would you care to point to anywhere in any of my posts where I suggested we just "spend, spend, spend", then "tax"?

Is it a typical Republican ploy to intentionally misrepresent the arguments being put forth by their political opponents, then dismiss them with a broad brush insult? If so, good job!

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Jill

The reason gas prices of $4.00+ a gallon in 2011 feel so painful, is because wealth disparity has been widening exponentially over the past several decades, where the rich are getting filthy rich and the poor and middle class have seen their incomes stagnate or even be lowered. Incomes aren't keeping pace with inflation, so even though today's gas prices are on par with 1970s gas prices in equivalent dollar value, the middle class don't have as many dollars to spend.

When I started driving in 1977, gas was between $0.35 and $0.45 a gallon. When gas rose to over $1 a gallon in the 90s, no one complained because everyone could afford it. Look at the chart on this site. Note that gas prices didn't start exploding until we started 2 wars in the largest oil-producing region in the world. And so it continues now with Libya, not to mention all the political unrest in several countries throughout the region.

Now look at the graph showing wealth disparity here, and scroll through the next 15 screens. This one is the most sickening.

If it doesn't blow your mind and/or piss you off, you have no concern about the future of this nation.

Guns, abortion, homosexuality -- those are all nothing more than distractions from the real problem this country faces, and that's ensuring that we have a strong and solid middle and working class. The more the wealthy Republicans fight to strip workers of their piddly benefits by comparison to what they're raking in, the more people will be forced into reliance on Government programs. The more people relying on Government programs, the more the Republicans fight to eliminate those programs as too costly. The only place this can lead us is into Third World status, as poverty rises and the government leaves people to fend for themselves on the streets. Don't tell me it can't happen. It's happening right now!

It's an ugly, vicious attack on the very people who have literally built this nation with their blood, sweat and tears. Real Average Earnings have not increased in 50 YEARS! But the best compensated 400 Americans earned on average, $345 MILLION per year!

Republican tax cuts have SIGNIFICANTLY increased the wealth gap.

And it should be no surprise that income inequality is worst in the areas around Wall Street and oil producing states.

This path is unsustainable. Cutting and gutting government services is a make-believe "solution" that will actually only make the problem worse, leading to increased poverty, more unwanted babies whose mothers cannot afford to feed them and nowhere to go to find food or shelter. Private charities could never hope to raise the kinds of funds needed to take care of the volumes of indigent families that will need these services, mostly because there'll be far fewer people with enough disposable income to give.

We need someone in the White House with some common sense on this issue. I'm deeply disappointed that President Obama has fallen prey to the machinations of the Republicans, who have been guiding the narrative in the wrong direction. If we want to stop the bleeding, we need to participate in our government by calling and writing our Representatives and making it clear that we want them and the President to stop being dragged around by the nose and to start exposing the destructive path Republicans are taking us down.

I don't give a shit about guns. Keep all you want. Shoot all the Bambis you want. I don't care if you hate gays, just don't expect our laws to enshrine your personal hatred in it. I don't care if you want to teach and preach abstinence and "the right to life" (even if I find it grossly hypocritical), just don't elevate it to the level of distraction from what's really endangering this country in the here and now.

We have to get real, people!

(Whew! How's that for a first post following my long hiatus? )

Good post. Although your agnst for one party while ignoring what the other has done or not done over the last 15 or 20 years is a bit over the top.

We can fix a lot of these problems with a flat or fair tax. You could take 100% of the money from the top 1 or 2 percent and it would not finance us out of our problems for a month. Spending has to be cut, period. The deficit needs to be addressed for the long term but not the short term. First cut spending.

[Jill]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Good post. Although your agnst for one party while ignoring what the other has done or not done over the last 15 or 20 years is a bit over the top.

We can fix a lot of these problems with a flat or fair tax. You could take 100% of the money from the top 1 or 2 percent and it would not finance us out of our problems for a month. Spending has to be cut, period. The deficit needs to be addressed for the long term but not the short term. First cut spending.

There have been some Democrats who have contributed to many of the problems we face. I would never deny that. I don't think I'll ever forgive Bill Clinton for signing Graham-Leach-Bliley and destroying Glass-Steagall. But my recollection is that Republicans had a veto-proof majority in Congress, so his signature was moot anyway (though I'm happy to be corrected if that memory is incorrect).

However, what I contend is that it has consistently been Republican policies that have historically done the most significant damage to our economy. We have suffered economically under Republican leadership to a far greater extent than under Democratic leadership in the last 50 years.

I don't think you'll find a Democrat who doesn't agree that spending needs to be cut. The Bush Administration and 6 years out of 8, of Republican majority in Congress, destroyed our economy by racking up spending on a gargantuan social program that wasn't paid for in the budget and two wars that have lasted damn near a decade now, also not paid for.

And although President Obama had to continue the Republican bailout programs, unfortunately to a greater degree, as more and more devastation to our economy was exposed, it was an absolute necessity to avoid a massive Depression. If John McCain had been elected, he would have been forced to do the exact same thing, and make no mistake, he absolutely would have.

But in spite of agreement that cuts need to be made, Republicans aren't acting in good faith or with any honesty on what needs to be cut and where those cuts will be most effective. They're cynically using the universally understood need for spending cuts to promote their social agenda, and offering up cuts to programs that are not only seriously needed in this country (and ultimately save our government money in the long run), but don't amount to a hill of beans on the side of Mount Everest when it comes to actually affecting the debt or deficit.

Cut oil subsidies. Cut farm subsidies for people who aren't even farming! (Michele Bachmann, I'm looking at you!) Root out waste and fraud. Cut the Pentagon budget (which is the single biggest slice of the pie). Stop no-bid contracts that cost billions of dollars in wasteful spending. Then dig into the tax code. Eliminate tax loopholes that allow U.S. businesses to offshore their income and pay no federal taxes on it. Roll back the Bush/Republican tax cuts that were never paid for and were intentionally set to expire in 10 years in order to get away with not having to pay for them (thereby leaving the issue of "raising taxes" in the lap of Democrats - nice political maneuver there!) and then give tax incentives to SMALL businesses to start hiring, thereby getting more people not only off the unemployment rolls, but back into the tax-paying pool, which will naturally raise revenues.

I want our government to get SERIOUS about the debt and deficit and stop playing these fucking games of demonizing the poor and targeting programs that are perceived as anti-Republican. Stop "playing politics" with where those cuts need to come from and just do it!