Obama Announces Re-election Bid

[Jill]

Originally Posted by BigV

come on, don't be shy. You're among friends.

tell us how you *really* feel.

One thing I've never been accused of is being shy.

Originally Posted by infinite monkey

I love it jill!

Wow..."insuring that we have a strong working and middle class" and "this path is unsustainable."

So what I've said and thought for so long.

It makes me sick that robots don't see this to be true.

I don't even think I love my country anymore. It's just a bad relationship, abused by the more powerful and expected to love it because I "love my country." While the powerful sip congnac and do whatever the hell they want.

It's NOT sustainable, and I really don't even want to be a part of it anymore.

Hallelujah troops and all that aside. You've been snowed.

As to this:



Many are way more concerned about being "correct." Bring on the breadlines and the starvation, just so they can stand with some sort of "I told you so" that they won't even remember ever actually telling us.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge.

Welcome back jill.

Don't jump! Don't jump! Call your Senators instead! Make them want to jump -- through hoops, to get us what we demand!!

Thanks for the welcome and the nice reply, infinite monkey.

[Fair&Balanced]

Jill:

I agree with much of what you say, particularly the growing income disparity and the lost decade (2001-2010) for the middle class resulting in large part from a shift in policies that made it more advantageous for the wealthy to be able to acquire more wealth by producing nothing rather than focusing on innovation and productivity.

And I agree that the current slash and burn mentality of many of the proposed spending cuts will lead to even greater income disparity and the further stagnation of the middle class as well as limiting the US ability to retool the economy in a way that will restore US competitiveness.

But we do need to address the debt. It is unsustainable and will continue to be a drag on any economic growth and/or prosperity for the middle class. And it will require shared sacrifices, including some programs that may be hard to let go.

The problem is building consensus in an atmosphere of extremism. I dont have the answer of how to achieve that.

[Jill]

Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced

Jill:

I agree with much of what you say, particularly the growing income disparity and the lost decade (2001-2010) for the middle class resulting in large part from a shift in policies that made it more advantageous for the wealthy to be able to acquire more wealth by producing nothing rather than focusing on innovation and productivity.

And I agree that the current slash and burn mentality of many of the proposed spending cuts will lead to even greater income disparity and the further stagnation of the middle class as well as limiting the US ability to retool the economy in a way that will restore US competitiveness.

But we do need to address the debt. It is unsustainable and will continue to be a drag on any economic growth and/or prosperity for the middle class. And it will require shared sacrifices, including some programs that may be hard to let go.

The problem is building consensus in an atmosphere of extremism. I dont have the answer of how to achieve that.

The best way to address the debt is to reinstate PAYGO -- and this time, mean it. No more of these freaking loopholes that allow bullshit like the Bush/Republican tax cuts, which didn't have to be paid for because they were only "temporary" and set to expire in 10 years -- the outside window for being allowed to be left out of the budget.

Oh, but wait, they didn't really mean it. Now they'll hold the country hostage unless they're extended 2 more years. Oh yeah, and still NOT PAID FOR.

And Medicare Part D? NOT PAID FOR! (And don't even get me started on how the Bush Administration intentionally lied to Congress about its true cost in order to get it passed.)

And the Afghanistan and Iraq wars? NOT PAID FOR!

Close your eyes and picture a single raindrop falling into the Atlantic Ocean. That's what "defunding" Planned Parenthood and NPR would be like. Pensions for government employees? chump change.

We cannot -- simply can NOT -- keep spending money without raising taxes to pay for the spending. Can't. It's just the most absurd notion on the face of this earth. And even more absurd to think we'll solve the debt problem by slashing what is usually primary medical care for poor women (and men, too, btw), which amounts to a measly $375 million a year, while raising the limit on tax exempt gifts from $1 MILLION to freaking $FIVE MILLION for individuals, and handing out $4 BILLION in subsidies to the single most profitable business on the planet; oil companies!

Those 400 top wage-earners I mentioned above? They netted an approximate 17% federal tax rate. And it's being reduced even further! How in the hell are we supposed to make up all that lost revenue? If we added up every dime that's spent on public broadcasting, Planned Parenthood and every single other hated service Republicans want to defund, you might be able to fill a bucket of water from the Atlantic.

We need the wealthy in this country to start coughing up their fair share. And yes, their fair share is going to be more than what's considered fair for someone making $12,000 a year. They didn't get to be multi-millionaires and billionaires without the help of the $12,000 a year schmoes somewhere along the road. If they're going to make it on the backs of the poor, it's obnoxious beyond words to then want to take away even more from people who already have nothing.

The poor and middle class in this country have nothing more to give. This turnip has been wrung dry. Ain't no mo blood in it. The government can't squeeze anything else out of us without it ending up costing them even more money. For every $1 spent on providing poor women pap smears and breast exams, the government saves $4 in higher medical costs of treating uterine, cervical and breast cancers that would otherwise have gone undetected. Yes, that's right, Planned Parenthood actually creates a net savings for the government.

And don't let the Paul Ryans of the country fool you. They're about to hold the entire economic stability of this country at gunpoint over an issue that they already passed in Ryan's budget bill! Yup. The Ryan budget raises the debt ceiling every single year for the next 10 years. Every. Year. Built in. No new voting on it every year, it's just automatic.

But they want people to believe that raising the debt ceiling isn't the answer -- cutting spending is the answer, then spew a bunch of crap that'll save 5 cents for every hundred million they're going to hand over to their crony friends and corporations. They're lying to the American public. Stop buying it and start holding them accountable for the truth.

It's the only way we're going to be able to fix this mess.

[Fair&Balanced]

I dont dispute any of the above....until your conclusion.

PAYGO,if implemented fully and honestly, will prevent any future growth in the debt; it wont help pay down the current debt.

The Bush tax cuts for the top bracket are a significant contributing factor to both present and future debt and should be restored to pre-2001 levels.

The Bush Medicare Prescription Drug reform costs the taxpayers more than the Affordable Care Act ever will.

I'm all for getting out of Iraq immediately and finding the best way to transition out of Afghanistan asap.

Cuts to programs like Planned Parenthood, Head Start, education, workforce investment, etc. are ideological and counter-productive.

We should also eliminate corporate tax subsidies and corporate welfare to big oil, big agriculture, etc.

We should cut defense spending significantly.

We should raise the income base for FICA so that those making over $106K pay the same percentage as those under $106K.

We should reduce the rate paid to providers of Medicare Advantage.

All of the above would certainly prevent the debt from continuing to grow by $trillions/year and would even make a big dent in the current debt level.

We also need to continue to invest in education, health care, job training, transportation and infrastructure, alternative energy, r&d, etc all of which contribute to economic growth.

We cant continue to fund housing assistance programs at current levels that reward people (middle class) who made bad decisions in the past and/or programs that are ineffective.

AND we also need to make fiscally justifiable cuts to other non-defense discretionary spending and that means cutting some popular programs and eliminating others.

IMO, the choice is not between spending cuts or tax increases. It is a combination of both.

[Spexxvet]

Nasty, demeaning comment by lookout123, followed by a dogpile of flint, merc, ug, classic, et al, on Jill in 3.....2....1......

[Jill]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Nasty, demeaning comment by lookout123, followed by a dogpile of flint, merc, ug, classic, et al, on Jill in 3.....2....1......

Eh. I'm not worried. I can hold my own. Or choose to ignore them if I want. Don't forget, I've debated here before. And not without success.

[Fair&Balanced]

Originally Posted by Jill

Eh. I'm not worried. I can hold my own. Or choose to ignore them if I want. Don't forget, I've debated here before. And not without success.

When they (Mercenary) default to their defensive "I dont have to prove I am right or provide a cite, you have to prove I am wrong" mode, ignoring is ultimately where it ends.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced

When they (Mercenary) default to their defensive "I dont have to prove I am right or provide a cite, you have to prove I am wrong" mode, ignoring is ultimately where it ends.

I got it. You still can't back up your statements. Please cite.

What countries? Where? When? What failure?


Thanks.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced

When they (Mercenary)....

Who is they? The Illuminati? The Republickins? The Zombies? The Boggie Men under your bed? I knowwwww! Fox News!!!!!

[Jill]

Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced

I dont dispute any of the above....until your conclusion.

PAYGO,if implemented fully and honestly, will prevent any future growth in the debt; it wont help pay down the current debt.

The Bush tax cuts for the top bracket are a significant contributing factor to both present and future debt and should be restored to pre-2001 levels.

The Bush Medicare Prescription Drug reform costs the taxpayers more than the Affordable Care Act ever will.

I'm all for getting out of Iraq immediately and finding the best way to transition out of Afghanistan asap.

Cuts to programs like Planned Parenthood, Head Start, education, workforce investment, etc. are ideological and counter-productive.

We should also eliminate corporate tax subsidies and corporate welfare to big oil, big agriculture, etc.

We should cut defense spending significantly.

We should raise the income base for FICA so that those making over $106K pay the same percentage as those under $106K.

We should reduce the rate paid to providers of Medicare Advantage.

All of the above would certainly prevent the debt from continuing to grow by $trillions/year and would even make a big dent in the current debt level.

We also need to continue to invest in education, health care, job training, transportation and infrastructure, alternative energy, r&d, etc all of which contribute to economic growth.

We cant continue to fund housing assistance programs at current levels that reward people (middle class) who made bad decisions in the past and/or programs that are ineffective.

AND we also need to make fiscally justifiable cuts to other non-defense discretionary spending and that means cutting some popular programs and eliminating others.

IMO, the choice is not between spending cuts or tax increases. It is a combination of both.

We agree on nearly every count. I apologize for not being more clear in my post.

Spending cuts are absolutely necessary! Required!

But the distraction is where the current Republican Leadership is claiming those cuts need to come from. The Pentagon budget is out of control. $4 billion in subsidies to the oil industry is outrageous. It's so much bigger than $375 million on health care for the needy, that I cannot believe we're actually talking about eliminating Title X funding as if it would make any difference whatsoever.

We need to cut waste and fraud in some of the programs, not necessarily the programs themselves.

As for the housing bailouts, I do part ways with you there. The notion that people were greedy and knowingly got in over their heads is yet another lie perpetuated by the Right to demonize people for their own political benefit and distract from what actually caused the real problem. I don't know why it's so easy to believe that individual home buyers were irresponsible, but hard to believe that there could be lenders who were irresponsible in their duty to disclose, and who actually sold people a bill of goods.

I am an extremely savvy contract negotiator. I read everything (yes, it took many, many, many hours to go through closing). I ask all the right questions. My husband and I had excellent credit (750 range). Our income was totally sufficient and then some. We had no debt. None. Not a vehicle, not a credit card, nothing. We were completely qualified for a conventional loan.

But after our earnest money was already paid, and one day before closing, all of a sudden our broker "sadly" informed us that he wasn't able to get us a conventional loan after all. The "best" he could do was an interest only 1st and an adjustable 2nd mortgage. We're ONE day before closing! We have NO WAY to go looking for another lender. And then, to rub salt in the wound, the "Good Faith Estimate of Closing Costs" that he provided us was anything but "Good Faith". Imagine our shock when we walked into the escrow office with a GFE of $10,000 in costs, and were handed an actual closing cost document with $20,000 in costs! $5,000 of that was a full point the broker took that he told us he we wouldn't be paying. And he was the only sonofabitch that wouldn't budge on lowering his fees to get the costs more in line with what he told us they would be.

And take a wild guess who he put our loans with. . .

IndyMac and Countrywide.

I didn't pick those banks. I didn't walk in and ask for a loan I couldn't afford. Yet here I was, forced into a position of either sucking it up, signing the documents and coughing up the extra cash, or losing our earnest money and the house! And then the banks bundled up our loan with a bunch of other loans, many of which ended up being bad, and sold them on the secondary market!

The only thing that separated us from many, many of the people who got sucked into this mess is that we were very, very lucky that we were able to refinance into a conventional loan within the first 2 years, because our home hadn't started losing value yet.

The hucksters at the banks and mortgage companies played dirty tricks with the housing market, but they were "too big to fail" so they had to be "bailed out". People who made HUGE mistakes in how they did business -- intentionally -- got bailed out. Our economy would have completely collapsed had we let that many large institutions fail.

I contend our economy continues to be at enormous risk as more and more individuals are unable to get out of these ridiculous loans into conventional loans and the market continues to be flooded with foreclosed homes and bankruptcies rise. If the people who actually caused this mess can be relieved of their financial burden (and even walk away with HUGE bonuses), then let the people who suffered from this mess be relieved of their financial burden.

Yeah, some irresponsible individuals will benefit from it, and on a gut level that feels wrong. But most individuals were ordinary people like me and my husband who were manipulated into bad loans by thieving lenders. Let them wipe their slates clean just like we let the banks do, stabilizing the housing market and the economy, and move forward from here with some new regulations that will prevent lenders from ever getting away with this again.

[Happy Monkey]

Heh, I wonder if Obama deliberately timed the release of his birth certificate to after this book went to the printer.

[Jill]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Heh, I wonder if Obama deliberately timed the release of his birth certificate to after this book went to the printer.

Oh yay, another conspiracy theory! I was hoping we'd get another one of those!

And thanks, classicman. I disagree that the threshold needs to be so high on reinstating prior tax rates, but at this point it's a moot talking point anyway.

As for those making $10,000, they pay plenty of taxes, just not necessarily federal income taxes. They still pay sales tax, gas tax, Social Security tax, State income tax, and even property tax (even if they're renting, as their rent covers the owner's property tax liability).

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Jill

As for those making $10,000, they pay plenty of taxes,

Perhaps - thats been a talking point all along for the D's -
Our country needs more and everyone needs to help a lil more.
Go team America.

[classicman]

Revenue needs to be raised - even if temporarily. Cuts need to be made and they will hurt - No one likes having the bottle taken from them.

Tax increases may or may not be necessary... Removing many of the loopholes that exist in the ridiculous system, many of which are applicable only to the wealthy, would surely make sense.
The Bush tax cuts - need to be modified - I think the $250,000 threshold could be changed to $3,000,000 or even $5,000,000 and still reap the vast majority of the intended purpose.

Corporate taxes need to be adjusted as well. Probably reducing the rates so that more companies will headquarter here again instead of overseas for lower rates. Additionally, the reductions/deductions should be adjusted so that they actually pay - something.

Cutting from defense ... Exactly who are we defending ourselves from, at this point, that warrants this amount of spending?
A good part of this is for many of our "friends" around the world, yes that includes Europe. Sorry we've been playing Daddy for far too many, for far too long. Delete this as well.

Start cutting aid from abroad. We need to take care of our own. Why are we giving money to over 150 other countries when we need it here at home?

Cutting waste and fraud from entitlement programs. Increasing the efficiency and reducing the massive BS that a citizen has to go through to utilize the services as well. I know this is contradictory sounding, but it is insane the levels of crap and the hoops one must go through to actually get the services some of us pay for.

Refund Planned Parenthood. WTF was that about? (excellent points Jill, I totally agree)

That leads me to another thought - EVERYONE MUST PAY - Period. I don't care if you make $10,000 or $10,000,000 - you need to contribute something.

Iraq - we gave you as much, actually more than we could afford. Oh and yeh - we'll be getting some serious discounts on oil, thanks.

I disagree with F&B on medicare - The Docs are getting spit at this point. (10-15 cents on the dollar.) From personal experience, I have yet to find anyone who will accept it. To this point, it has been nothing but a worthless placeholder in my wallet. Further, I suggest that every physician be required to accept a % of or a set number of patients on medicare/aid. This should have been done in the HCRA.

Somehow we need to change the situation so that more people are contributing. Having so many not doing so is unsustainable.

Very good posts/points by both F&B and Jill. I've enjoyed reading them. :bigthumb:

[TheMercenary]

You can't run up the credit cards and then cry fowl because you don't have enough money in the bank. It is a typical Demoncrat ploy, spend, spend, spend.... tax. Sounds like the days where the Airforce would build a base and put in elaborate quarters and a great O'Club and then cry off because they didn't have enough money for the runway. Blaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....