Time magazine cover - What happens when we leave

[Pete Zicato]

This weeks Time magazine. Very disturbing.

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...007269,00.html

Will you condemn an entire people for this, or just the idiots responsible?

[xoxoxoBruce]

What happens to Koba?

[Lamplighter]

The story of Aisha is, indeed, disturbing. I don't have a simple answer.
Maybe a tiny price we parents in the US,
have to pay is being forced to explain to our kids how
it comes to be that young girls can be so mistreated.

But it seems to me that the American public has been mislead for a very long time,
in that we were first told it was a war against Al Queda because of 9/11.
But the current fighting has come to be with the Taliban.
This makes it a religious war, and one that a "Christian" nation can not win.

So using every event as an excuse to criticize Obama will not be profitable,
nor is saying something like "My President, Right or Wrong".
I find myself putting my hope in the likes of Ambassador Holbrook,
to actually negotiate with the Afghan government
and with the Taliban for post-war civility.
Public calls for negotiations with the Taliban will be more useful than
playing towards the politics of our coming elections.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Maybe a tiny price we parents in the US, have to pay is being forced to explain to our kids how it comes to be that young girls can be so mistreated.

The same as explaining the same thing happens in many other places.

But the current fighting has come to be with the Taliban.
This makes it a religious war, and one that a "Christian" nation can not win.

I disagree. It does not make it a religious war, unless you are saying Afghans who don't support the Taliban are not really Muslims.
Indeed the rest of the people in the world, that don't agree with the Taliban, can't be Muslims.
It's a culture war... we, and the Taliban, wish to impose our culture on the Afghans.
Both say it's to save the Afghans from the other.

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The same as explaining the same thing happens in many other places.

I disagree. It does not make it a religious war, unless you are saying Afghans who don't support the Taliban are not really Muslims.
Indeed the rest of the people in the world, that don't agree with the Taliban, can't be Muslims.
It's a culture war... we, and the Taliban, wish to impose our culture on the Afghans.
Both say it's to save the Afghans from the other.

No, I did not mean to say that at all.

I said that Americans have been mislead for a long time. I think most Americans now believe that if the Taliban returns to power, only their version of Islamic law will be tolerated, and that is the reason we are fighting them. It is that belief that makes it a religious war... certainly the Al Queda in Afghanistan is no longer a viable reason.

But it is exactly that aspect of tribal custom and religious practice that I believe is negotiable... other areas in the world governed by Islamic law do not necessarily harbor Al Queda, cut off the nose / ears of young girls because they flee abusive in-laws, stone women for adultery, prohibit education of women, and the other (abhorrent) practices that have been portrayed in the US media.

But if the US cannot tolerate that country being governed by Islamic law, we will either be there militarily for years to come with still no guarantee of "success", or whatever government we set up there will fail soon after our military leaves.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

I said that Americans have been mislead for a long time. I think most Americans now believe that if the Taliban returns to power, only their version of Islamic law will be tolerated, and that is the reason we are fighting them. It is that belief that makes it a religious war... certainly the Al Qaeda in Afghanistan is no longer a viable reason.

Al Qaeda in general, and bin Laden in particular, are the reasons #1 we are back. After having been essentially defeated the first time.

Taliban is a target only because they remain protecting Al Qaeda.

For a while, negotiations caused the Taliban to reassess their association with Al Qaeda. It’s not entirely clear why those negotiation terminated. Some reasons point to Pakistan (not the big wigs - the littler power brokers) helping to subvert those negotiations. But the bottom line remains the #1 target - bin Laden and Al Qaeda. Never forget that.

If we so hated Islamic law, well, why is it practiced in countries we call friends - ie Saudi Arabia?

It's not about Islamic law. That picture is only incendiary. Its only purpose is to make everyone emotional. That picture says why the first Afghan war could have been so easily won. But now those advantages are lost. We abandoned those same people to the Taliban because our leaders (and their wacko supporters) were that dumb.

Now we have a problem. We no longer have trust necessary to defeat the Taliban. No longer have trust that was necessary to get bin Laden. Another legacy of George Jr.

Do not for one minute forget what is enemy number one. bin Laden in particular. And Al Qaeda in general.

Al Qaeda that only existed in Indonesia and Iraq because wackos love to lie. bin Laden who was trapped in Torra Borra with the 10th Mountain Division just down the road. And the 10th was denied permission to go after bin Laden. Thank you George Jr. That is why our problems are so complicated now. Stupidity at the highest levels of government where an extemist party agenda was more important than America.

Having essentially made bin Laden into a martyr, we have now provided he and his organization with supporters. Even in some parts of the Pakistani government that regards the Afghan government as an enemy and ally of India. What a mess. Our target is now embedded in and camouflaged by numerous peripheral entities.

Once upon a time, it was easy to see the enemy. Most all opposed him. Today, due to one of this nation's dumbest presidents, that problem is extremely complex. George Jr all but surrendered to the Taliban. What a mess a dumb leader can make.

Even now, many still confuse that Time Magazine picture with why we are there. Picture is for silly emotions. And not relevant to America's strategic objectives. Ignore silly emotions. Never forget who and what is enemy #1.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Pete Zicato

This weeks Time magazine. Very disturbing.

Will you condemn an entire people for this, or just the idiots responsible?

Not disturbing to me.

No, I would not condemn "an entire people" for this, but I would actively condemn any element of the religion that supports such acts. Just as I would condemn the people who target abortion doctors or protest soldiers funerals. They are all just the same extremists of different organizations.

[classicman]

It is suspected that enemy #1 is already dead...

[tw]

Originally Posted by classicman

It is suspected that enemy #1 is already dead...

Only when extremist spin a, "Don't blame us. He is dead." myth. bin Laden runs free because the political agenda is always more important than America. He is dead only when we have his body - no matter what the latest wacko extremist myth may be.

bin Laden's movement - Al Qaeda - lives on also thanks to extremist Americans who decided to blame Saddam. Cast blame on Saddam so that mistakes by Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al in 1991 could be corrected. Another political agenda at the expense of 5000 good American soldiers.

bin Laden is only dead because extremists need him to be - so that we do not blame wackos for all but protecting bin Laden.

[classicman]

We were discussing his fate a few weeks ago - perhaps you missed it.
So what you are saying is that even though you may agree that he is dead, he lives on through Al Qaeda. This gives you the ability to blame those whom you disagree with forever. How convenient.


FTR - I was being civil and you chose to be an asshole AGAIN.
Your passive-aggressive crap won't fly anymore. I'm not interested in the "writing style" argument either. You've played those cards too many times with too many people.

... Oh and Saddam is definitely dead - we have video proof.
However Iraq lives on ... for now.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

There is a stripe of -- yes, wacko; yes, extremist -- American opinion that just can't live with our doing anything at all with any branch of America's military.

These wacko defeatists are fascist-lovers: "Oh, don't bother those woman-stoning anti-democrats...".

Guess who I don't like. Guess what I don't love. Guess who objects to me and my values. Guess who's a walking pustulent shame thereby. Guess who's also a facist fellow-traveler, a sputnik. Buncha goddamn oppressors, unfree, slaveminded, as brutal a set of troglodytes as ever dragged a knuckle.

If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face -- forever.
- George Orwell

Or do we cut these maniacs off now and not tomorrow?

[ZenGum]

Think about it, UG, you can't stomp on a nose that has already been cut off.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Aside from the necessity of redirecting the boot to something cartilaginous on the linoleum of Room 101 -- which I think rather falsifies your statement there -- I'm not sure I see your point.

A point I occasionally raise is that if we were to do something that were to annoy them further -- please God that we might get the chance, and use it to the fullest -- we're not going to be able to tell if they are more annoyed. It's all the same old War on Terrorism to us, for we think clearly.

And since the "they" in question are more and more engaged in blowing their coreligionists up for not being loyal to *their* tenets of unfreedom and disliberty, "they" are inevitably going to lose this war by pissing off the folks they would convert. Who are going to take them and hang them, and very good riddance, don't you agree? Perhaps with a side order of trimming off a few things that aren't noses with hedge clippers, so they couldn't even think about breeding anything else like them.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

And since the "they" in question are more and more engaged in blowing their coreligionists up for not being loyal to *their* tenets of unfreedom and disliberty, "they" are inevitably going to lose this war by pissing off the folks they would convert. Who are going to take them and hang them, and very good riddance, don't you agree?

Guess who voted for George Jr.

[ZenGum]

UG, I was just being a smart ass.