What would Martin Niemoller think about Arizona?

[TheMercenary]

So they finally are sending a message to the illegals on the border.

Deadly force should be used more often.

[classicman]

Wow - without knowing the specifics, I would say that the death of a 14 year old boy is tragic. Relating this incident to the increase of deadly force for border security is highly questionable.

[classicman]

Arizona's tough new immigration enforcement law is fueling an exodus of Hispanics from the state seven weeks before it goes into effect, according to officials and residents in the state.

Though no one has precise figures, reports from school officials, businesses and individuals indicate worried Hispanics — both legal and illegal — are leaving the state in anticipation of the law, which will go into effect July 29.

Schools in Hispanic areas report unusual drops in enrollment. The Balsz Elementary School District is 75% Hispanic, and within a month of the law's passage, the parents of 70 students pulled them out of school, said District Superintendent Jeffrey Smith. The district lost seven students over the same one-month period last year, and parents tell Smith the Arizona law is the reason for leaving.
~snip~
Juan Carlos Cruz, an illegal immigrant who has worked in plant nurseries for 20 years, huddled with dozens of relatives over the Memorial Day Weekend in the backyard of his brother's Phoenix-area home to plot out the family's next move to avoid what they say will be harassment by police. Virginia and California are the front-runners.

"If I were alone, I'd try to stay. But I have a family, and I have to find a place where we can live with more freedom," said Cruz, who hopes to move July 4 to blend in with holiday weekend traffic. "This is getting too hard."

Poll: More Americans want an Ariz.-style immigration law in their states

Big jump in Latino registration for Democrats

[TheMercenary]

We will see. Never believe the first reports.

[lookout123]

I may have posted this before but don't remember. While the state is far from emptying out I have personally seen some evidence that a fair amount of illegals are hitting the road.

1) An adult tournament I always play in cancelled because some of the teams who were registered had to bail out due to lack of players. They are local teams I am familiar with and it was no secret they weren't all legal.

2) One of the soccer clubs I interact with is having serious problems because about half their coaches packed up and left rather than risk the chance of getting caught here.

3) One of the golf courses I know the management at is royally screwed. They are redoing the course from bottom up and the company that won the contract did so based on their access to a 200 person workforce. They've only been able to keep about 30 there regularly and have now resorted to hiring college kids. The management acknowledges that their workforce was primarily daylaborers who have left the area.

There doesn't seem to be any significant effect here, but obviously things are changing a bit.

Its not a solution to the problem....it just shifts it elsewhere....with hard working legal Hispanics leaving as well.

And makes AZ even more majority white.

[classicman]

Perhaps they can go to CA of Wash DC. More states are/will be following AZ lead.
The real issue could be what happens if/when they go back to Mexico (that is where the vast majority are from) to find a country that neither cares, wants nor can provide for them. Perhaps this will will be the impetus for them to take back their country.

Originally Posted by classicman

Perhaps they can go to CA of Wash DC. More states are/will be following AZ lead.
The real issue could be what happens if/when they go back to Mexico (that is where the vast majority are from) to find a country that neither cares, wants nor can provide for them. Perhaps this will will be the impetus for them to take back their country.

I think it is reasonable to assume they will go to neighboring states. The gov of NM doesnt support the law, neither does the gov of CA or the two new candidates for gov in CA, nor does the gov of TX.

It is not a solution. It is pushing the problem, to whatever limited extent, onto some one else.

Why do you think (or do you) more states should follow AZ's lead before they know it the law is constitutional and, if it is, whether or not it is enforceable and effectively addresses the problem.

IMO, for any state to mimic AZ before those issues are resolved, are doing so for political purposes, not for the best public policy. Certainly the other border states are not rushing to follow the AZ lead..and good for them (including the two biggest states, CA and TX, with republican governors and with the biggest problems) for not jumping on the bandwagon despite the clamoring from the right.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Redux

It is not a solution. It is pushing the problem, to whatever limited extent, onto some one else.

Seems like thats whats been happening for years, if not decades. This time however it is being pushed onto those that are responsible for it - The Fed Gov't.

Originally Posted by Redux

Why do you think (or do you) more states should follow AZ's lead before they know it the law is constitutional and, if it is, whether or not it is enforceable and effectively addresses the problem.

IMO - If the Fed Gov't isn't going to address the issue and uphold its responsibilities, then the states should be able to do so.
This law in general, not specifically, does just that. It has brought this issue to the forefront again and the ball is now clearly in the Fed's court.

Do you really believe it was just coincidence that those 1,200 troops were ordered to be sent to the border and the $500 million??
Or was that simply political pandering on Obama's part? Was it a step in the right direction. IIRC - Bush sent 6000 troops.
5 times more than Obama.

IMO, for any state to mimic AZ before those issues are resolved, are doing so for political purposes, not for the best public policy. Certainly the other border states are not rushing to follow the AZ lead..and good for them (including the two biggest states, CA and TX)

Then let them go there. That shouldn't be a problem for you. According to you, those states don't see it as an issue... or do they? There is so much conflicting information.

Seventy-six percent of Houston Business Journal readers that responded to the survey would support an immigration law similar to that in Arizona.
Twenty-three percent said "no."There were 1,486 total responses.
As expected, the question resulted in a broad range of comments for and against the cause.
Nancyrae S. commented, "It really is tiresome to hear and read the ignorant remarks of the uninformed. This bill doesn't turn a state into a police state - you will not be required to present papers just because of your skin color or speech.

"The bill requires law enforcement to ask for proof of status if you are stopped for breaking the law. This proof can be as simple as a driver's license. Contrary to the idiotic remarks made by government officials - you will not be deported while out for ice cream or because you are overheard speaking in a different language."

Link

There certainly are no easy answers. There is no magic bullet, pill nor potion that will make this just go away. People will be hurt, there is no doubt. It simply must be dealt with and not pushed off as many things are in politics.

Originally Posted by classicman

Seems like thats whats been happening for years, if not decades. This time however it is being pushed onto those that are responsible for it - The Fed Gov't.

IMO - If the Fed Gov't isn't going to address the issue and uphold its responsibilities, then the states should be able to do so.
This law in general, not specifically, does just that. It has brought this issue to the forefront again and the ball is now clearly in the Fed's court.

The federal government has increased spending on border enforcement from $6 billion to $10 billion since 2006.

The number of deportations has risen significantly in recent years.

And the total number of illegal in the country is at the lowest point in 10 years.

How is that NOT addressing the issue?

Do you really believe it was just coincidence that those 1,200 troops were ordered to be sent to the border and the $500 million??
Or was that simply political pandering on Obama's part? Was it a step in the right direction. IIRC - Bush sent 6000 troops.
5 times more than Obama.

There may or may be a direct correlation.....just as with the approval of of the use of drones, something requested for year and which Bush would not pursue.

If you look at Obama's 2011 budget request (from Feb) there are significant increases...and this was before the AZ law was enacted.

Then let them go there. That shouldn't be a problem for you. According to you, those states don't see it as an issue... or do they?

Of course they see it as an issue, they just dont see the AZ law as an effective solution.

According to them, not me:

Governor Perry...AZ law not right for Texas

Meg Whitman, republican nominee for governor of CA: critical of AZ immigration law and would veto it.

There certainly are no easy answers. There is no magic bullet, pill nor potion that will make this just go away. People will be hurt, there is no doubt. It simply must be dealt with and not pushed off as many things are in politics.

Again, how is increasing border security funding by more 50% over the last 4-5 years and more aggressively pursuing deportation NOT dealing with? It seems like you expect the feds to have a magic bullet, rather than make steady significant progress.

[lookout123]

Do you really believe it was just coincidence that those 1,200 troops were ordered to be sent to the border and the $500 million??
Or was that simply political pandering on Obama's part? Was it a step in the right direction. IIRC - Bush sent 6000 troops.
5 times more than Obama.

Do you mean the 1,200 troops that have yet to receive orders to go to the border? I know a number of the senior officers in the AZ NG headquarters and they still haven't heard much about being mobilized so it isn't happening anytime soon.

And the total number of illegal in the country is at the lowest point in 10 years

Honest question: If they are illegal and we have no accurate way of knowing who they are, where they are, or how many there are... how do you know there are fewer now than in the last 10 years?

Originally Posted by lookout123

Do you mean the 1,200 troops that have yet to receive orders to go to the border? I know a number of the senior officers in the AZ NG headquarters and they still haven't heard much about being mobilized so it isn't happening anytime soon.

Honest question: If they are illegal and we have no accurate way of knowing who they are, where they are, or how many there are... how do you know there are fewer now than in the last 10 years?

Fair question....IMO, the best available data is the annual DHS report....unless you know of something better, hopefully not from a partisan interest group that cant support their own numbers.

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/s...ll_pe_2009.pdf

And I stand corrected, 2009 showed the lowest total number of illegals in the country in the last five years.

[lookout123]

so we can count them, we just can't seem to get them back out of the country. weird.

Originally Posted by lookout123

so we can count them, we just can't seem to get them back out of the country. weird.

I would frame the questions differently....should we prevent more from coming in. Yes, and the feds have been making progress doing that.

For those 10+ million already here.....should we find a way to round them all up, ensuring that it is constitutional and no legals are caught up in the sweep and toss them out (at a cost of $billions) OR find a way to bring them out from underground, the vast majority of whom are hard working and not creating havoc or committing violent crimes. and put a process in place so that they become contributing taxpayers, after a process of "paying their dues" (and contribute $billions).