What would Martin Niemoller think about Arizona?

Originally Posted by classicman

Its also funny in a pathetic that they're criticizing something they haven't even read. They've had weeks and its only ten pages.

It is a fallacy to believe that every state legislator or member of Congress or state/federal executive branch officials read every piece of legislation.

That is why they have staff...that is why there are committee structures and recognized experts in both parties who lead the initiatives and brief fellow party members on the details of legislation.

For any piece of legislation, state or federal, there are probably only handful of people who have actually read the bill...and that would most likely be the staff who wrote it.

I would bet very few of the AZ legislators in either party read the legislation. It is simply not how governing bodies work. In fact, it is not how most organizations work.

And it doesnt apply just to legislation. Do you think a president should read every intel report cover-to-cover before making a decision....or rely on detailed briefings/recommendations from staff (the director of national intelligence)?

In the private sector, do you think a CEO reads every report/recommendation directed to his/her attention? Delegation and division of labor recognizing particular expertise within the structure is the manner in which good organizations work most effectively.

added:
And in the legislative process, most bill amend existing laws and cant simply be read free-standing.

The AZ bill may only be ten pages, but this is is at the heart of it.

AMENDING TITLE 11, CHAPTER 7, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES, BY ADDING ARTICLE 8;

AMENDING TITLE 13, CHAPTER 15, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES, BY ADDING SECTION 13-1509;

AMENDING SECTION 13-2319, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES;

AMENDING TITLE 13, CHAPTER 29, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES, BY ADDING SECTIONS 13-2928 AND 13-2929;

AMENDING SECTIONS 23-212, 23-212.01, 23-214 AND 28-3511, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES;

AMENDING TITLE 41, CHAPTER 12, ARTICLE 2, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES, BY ADDING SECTION 41-1724; RELATING TO UNLAWFULLY PRESENT ALIENS.

Reading a bill is not like reading a book or a magazine article.

To fully understand it, one would have to read it in the context of all these existing statutes or sections of the state code that the bill amends at the same time as one reads the legislation.

I can guarantee that very few legislators read it in such a manner.

You may think it is pathetic. I think it is representative of good organizational management.

[classicman]

Then they shouldn't comment on what it says if they do not understand it.
AND THEY ADMIT that all they knew was what they heard/saw from the press.
That is NOT representative of good organizational management.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by classicman

Then they shouldn't comment on what it says if they do not understand it.
AND THEY ADMIT that all they knew was what they heard/saw from the press.

It is possible that they do understand it, without having read it.

Originally Posted by classicman

That is NOT representative of good organizational management.

Yes, it is. Delegation is key to good management. Nobody can do everything themselves. Having aides read the bill and give a synopsis to the legislator is a valid management tool.

[classicman]

How could they possibly understand the specifics without reading it - GTFO

One of them admitted all he new was what he saw, read on tv - I think it was Holder. Sorry - thats not where I want my representatives forming their opinions. If they don't know, just admit it and say "I don't know." or "I haven't read it yet"

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by classicman

How could they possibly understand the specifics without reading it - GTFO

Intelligent, trusted aides read it and 'splained it to them.

[classicman]

One of them admitted all he new was what he saw, read on tv
Do you keep missing that or are you just choosing not to read it because he is one of the guys on "your team"

Originally Posted by Attorney General Eric Holder

I have not had a chance to, I've glanced at it. I have not read it.

... I have not really, I have not been briefed yet.

... I've only made, made the comments that I've made on the basis of things that I've been able to glean by reading newspaper accounts, obviously, looking at television, talking to people who are on the review panel, on the review team that are looking at the law.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by classicman

One of them admitted all he new was what he saw, read on tv
Do you keep missing that or are you just choosing not to read it because he is one of the guys on "your team"

Calm down. I'm ignoring it because I don't dispute this particular point in your argument. K?

[classicman]

k

[TheMercenary]

The whole thing will be more effective if we can get NM and Texas to adopt the same bills in their states. That would be most awesome.

[classicman]

I disagree completely.
The Fed should uphold its responsibilities and not put a state into this situation in the first place.

[TheMercenary]

Considering that they have failed in that department for so many years now, I think it would be a good idea for the states to take action as they independently are allowed to do. I think it would be a great idea, the sooner the better.

[classicman]

Obama to Send 1,200 Guard Troops to Mexico Border

President Obama will send up to 1,200 National Guard troops to the Southwest border and increase spending on law enforcement, yielding to demands from both Republican and Democratic lawmakers there that border security be tightened, administration officials said.
Mr. Obama is expected to make the announcement Tuesday, the officials said, after a meeting with lawmakers.

Homeland Security officials said that the troops would provide support to law enforcement officers already working along the border by helping observe and monitor traffic between official crossing points, and would help analyze trafficking patterns in hopes of intercepting illegal drug shipments. They performed similar tasks in an earlier deployment along the border from 2006 to 2008, when they also assisted with road and fence construction. The troops have not been involved directly in intercepting border crossers.

Calls to send troops to the border mounted after the shooting death of a rancher in southern Arizona on March 27; the police suspect the rancher was killed by someone involved in smuggling. Advocates of a new state law in Arizona that gives the police a greater role in immigration enforcement also emphasized what they considered a failure to secure the border as a reason to pass the law.

Representative Gabrielle Giffords, a Democrat from southern Arizona, praised the decision. Ms. Giffords is expecting a strong challenge for reelection, and was an early proponent of sending troops to the border.

“The White House is doing the right thing,” she said in a statement announcing the move. “Arizonans know that more boots on the ground means a safer and more secure border. Washington heard our message.”

Link

Yes it did - It was the message known as Arizona Senate Bill 1070.

[Flint]

Wait...who was Marvin Steamroller again???

Despite all the rhetoric from the right, Obama has increased funding for border enforcement significantly in his first two budget requests...and the Democratic Congress has increased funding every year since they took control.

And despite all the rhetoric, enforcement efforts and deportations have also increased.

But neither of the above facts have prevented misrepresentations by the AZ law supporters.

And, in the opinion of many, it still doesnt make the AZ law good public policy...as well as the unsettled question of the constitutionality of the law.

[classicman]

We already had that argument - just look back a few pages if you aren't too lazy.
Reality is that the administration is now taking action and thats a good thing. Their lawyers have probably already figured out its constitutionally sound, whether you like it or not. They've had plenty of time to figure it out.
When left with no choice, they are finally doing what they should have done all along. Bravo Arizona!