What would Martin Niemoller think about Arizona?

[jinx]

...which brings us back to the drug war and the Mexican economy, the real problems.

I was actually thinking of all the other reasons that make traffic stops a scary situation...
But if the real problem is the mexican economy, what legislation do the republicans need to pass to solve or at least address it? Instead of pandering I mean.

My problem with it is that no matter what is done at the border, human intelligence will circumvent those "secure the border" measures if there is a strong economic or social incentive.

Especially if there is no way to detect illegals and no consequences for being one.

I think it makes us less free and less safe to abandon an open culture.

What? How?

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Griff

I think it makes us less free and less safe to abandon an open culture.

Originally Posted by jinx

What? How?

We have a flexible dynamic economy, which takes advantage of a free flow of ideas and people. If we shut down immigration we stifle that dynamism. We know we have a screwed up education system in this country, which often trains kids for jobs that don't exist. If Mexico, India, or Canada is accidentally educating people who fill positions our kids don't, we need to take advantage of that to remain a flexible economy. I see immigration controls as largely fear drive. That fear is reasonable when related to the violent drug culture, but not reasonable if it thinks we can't absorb productive immigrants.

As far as what Republicans (but lets say everyone) need to do,.. On our side of the fence we shrink the market for illegal drugs. On the other side of the fence we use our considerable economic/political influence to support rule of law and market reforms in Mexico.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Griff

If we shut down immigration we stifle that dynamism.

Who said anything about shutting down immigration? Securing our borders doesn't mean closing them.

[Griff]

Securing our borders is a kind of magical empty phrase, so I assign it this meaning: militarizing the border, bureaucratizing travel in and out of the country, reducing flexibility, and creating barriers of intimidation, fear, and frustration. Productive immigrants often seek to escape that which we propose to inflict upon ourselves.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Griff

Securing our borders is a kind of magical empty phrase, so I assign it this meaning: militarizing the border, bureaucratizing travel in and out of the country, reducing flexibility, and creating barriers of intimidation, fear, and frustration. Productive immigrants often seek to escape that which we propose to inflict upon ourselves.

But your assigned meaning is so extreme, I doubt if you could find more than a handful of people to endorse implementing it.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Griff

We have a flexible dynamic economy, which takes advantage of a free flow of ideas and people. If we shut down immigration we stifle that dynamism.

The AZ law doesn't even try to shut down immigration. It just makes what's already illegal under federal law illegal under state law.

We know we have a screwed up education system in this country, which often trains kids for jobs that don't exist. If Mexico, India, or Canada is accidentally educating people who fill positions our kids don't, we need to take advantage of that to remain a flexible economy.

I agree on principal, that's why we DO allow immigration. But first and foremost, these jobs need to be filled by legal residents.

I see immigration controls as largely fear drive. That fear is reasonable when related to the violent drug culture, but not reasonable if it thinks we can't absorb productive immigrants.

Agreed. Productive legal immigrants that pay income tax anyway... Btw, how's the economy over there in CA these days?

As far as what Republicans (but lets say everyone) need to do,.. On our side of the fence we shrink the market for illegal drugs.

Pfizer is trying...

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by jinx

Agreed. Productive legal immigrants that pay income tax anyway... Btw, how's the economy over there in CA these days?

Eleven percent unemployment statewide.