12/2: College freshman learns about dissent

[tw]

Originally posted by Undertoad
...two days after that, she was visited by the Secret Service and accused of having "anti-American material" in her apartment.

The poster reads "We hang George Bush". That is a federal crime. However once inside the apartment (instead of reading it from the street), then read the fine print: "on your every word". The Secret Service agent did exactly what we want the agents to do. Only the paranoid would see a sinister government in this act. They rightly stayed around just to make sure she did not fit the profile of Lee Harvey Oswald and friends. That is what they are suppose to do. That is what federal law demands of the Secret Service.

BTW, that fine print was no accident. It was intended to test the limits of the law. It is illegal - a federal crime - to say to anyone that we should shoot or hang the President. Why? In Israel, one man did just that repeatedly - and as a result is now the Prime Minister thereby resulting in the massacre of innocents Jews and Arabs.

There is certain speech that is not free. You cannot (and should not) make threats on a President's life just like you cannot yell fire in a theatre or that your gun in already on the plane. That speech is just not acceptable - or legal.

Once the agent determined this poster contained fine print and that the girl was indeed not a threat to the president, then the agent had done his job.

As for the girl, there is absolutely NO reason for her to be rattled if she is stable. They asked some honest questions as they should have. She had no reason to be scared or threatened. She had nothing to hide. But she should have learned about what that poster (and what free speech) cannot say.

What is more scary? A door to door salesman. If he is trying to sell that trash in my neighborhood, he is certainly deranged and a threat to honest people. Questions from a policemen where he has good reason to ask - never been a problem.

This article is silly nonsense because it intentionally ignores obvious facts (ie the fine print) and therefore is probably being hyped by the paranoid.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by tw

This article is silly nonsense because it intentionally ignores obvious facts (ie the fine print) and therefore is probably being hyped by the paranoid.

I just stumbled across this thread when I saw it being read by a spider, and am amazed at the position being taken by tw here. I had to go back and check it a few times. Sure, he makes some sense from a technnical view of the law, but his trust of the federal government is so contrary to his posts of today.

[barefoot serpent]

Originally Posted by glatt

I saw it being read by a spider

damn his eyes!

all 12 of them

[xoxoxoBruce]

The spiders are everywhere.

[OwenKL]

Conductor held over 'terrorism' comment

Tuesday, 4 December, 2001


One of the world's most famous conductors was briefly detained by Swiss police on suspicion of being linked to terrorist activities.

Frenchman Pierre Boulez had his passport confiscated in the town of Basle where he had been conducting at a music festival last month.

The Swiss did that? Oh, wait, look at that dateline, less than three months past 9/11. For that matter, check the dateline on the original story about the college student, NOVEMBER 21, 2001, just over 2 months past 9/11. Everyone was still pretty antsy then.

Still, such activities are not in our public interest. That poster, for example,

She got the poster she displays at an "anti-inauguration" protest in DC.

This was a professionally-prepared, MASS-PRODUCED poster! Distributed in the city where the Secret Service is headquartered! And despite all that's been said about it above, I don't think anyone at the time was seeing it as a threat to Bush, since he's depicted as the one doing the killing, but rather as a seditious and un-American criticism of the personification of the US Government {PBUI}.

(BTW, anyone else notice that the 152 Bush is charged with killing is just 4 more than the 148 Saddam Hussein was charged with killing in Iraq?)
--------------------------------------------------
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

~~Theodore Roosevelt

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by OwenKL

The Swiss did that? Oh, wait, look at that dateline, less than three months past 9/11.

That's right, this is an old thread being revisited.
Welcome to the Cellar, by the way.

[OwenKL]

Good grief! Is it possible to resurrect a thread that old?

I guess it is!

This is so apropos to current events, with the "Military Commissions Act" allowing the gov to suspend all sorts of rights, that I didn't even suspect it was that old, and so didn't think to check the dates on the messages, just the articles. Sorry.

[tw]

Originally Posted by glatt

I just stumbled across this thread when I saw it being read by a spider, and am amazed at the position being taken by tw here. I had to go back and check it a few times. Sure, he makes some sense from a technnical view of the law, but his trust of the federal government is so contrary to his posts of today.

That SS agent did his job as he is supposed to in a society that is tolerant, legal, and operates in the interest of America. What has changed? Those same people - ie Secret Service agent or Captain of the USS Bataan - are no longer permitted to do their job. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. Was the SS agent then violating any laws or violating principle behind those laws? No.

Today's top management is so vile and corrupt as to need a junior general - Lt General Sanchez - to do Central Command. They could not find a responsible and experienced general to touch it. Federal agents are now ordered to spy on Americans without even a court order. Military personal are ordered to kidnap, murder, and even hide their charges from the International Red Cross.

What has changed? 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top scumbag liars. And so 2,800 good Americans were murdered in Iraq for the glory and legacy of George Jr - who could not even finish his National Guard obligations and lied about that. What has changed? Science is perverted for the glory of that scumbag. Notice how many Americans now think torture is acceptable - who stupidly and with no grasp of reality believe that torture will get useful information. That is what has changed. Look at how many Americans, so much like Brown Shirts, deny a Universal Declaration for Human Rights and deny the Geneva Conventions. You have seen it posted even in The Cellar.

My facts have not changed. My tone has changed. No one ten years ago would have expected me to be posting so acidic. But then nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition. America has moved that much towards Nazistic concepts advocated by Urbane Guerilla and Rush Limbaugh. Even MaggieL is now tolerant and acceptable of such Nazi like attitudes. That is what has changed. 85% of all problems directly traceable to soundbyte liars. America has changed to a land where even religion should be imposed on all other people.

That SS agent was only doing his job. But today, that SS service agent is now ordered to investigate anyone who identifies administration lies about Iraq and who asks questions such as "When do we go after bin Laden". Do you realize how anti-American so many Americans have become?

$8billion to airlines with no strings attached - and Americans did not complain. Massive tariffs to enrich steel companies that are anti-American - and Americans said nothing. Hundreds of billions in government welfare to the drug industry so that they can maintain 40% and 90% higher prices for drugs - and America said nothing. I did not change. America did. American soldiers are given dog collars and leashes to torture prisoners – and then get blamed for doing what top White House management ordered. What changed? Me?

Rkzenrage posters in "Non-Americans are scum - and should be kidnapped" and in other threads would have never been relevant 5 and 10 years ago. Never relevant when Americans were acting as Americans. Those posters are sarcastically and cynically funny because America has changed that much and in that direction. Nazi like attitudes are promoted by Urbane Guerrilla. MaggieL even advocates the destruction of Habeas Corpus. And so many here have no problem with that. Cheney has openly said the White House does not have enough power. In Reagan and Clinton's time, we worried about a weaker White House with too much power. Today many in the Cellar advocate more presidental powers. What has changed? Me? My tone has changed. My position has not.

[xoxoxoBruce]

You forgot the Big Dic.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by tw

......

Sorry, Man. I know I hit a sore spot there. I was just amazed to see the change in your view of the government. I know you haven't changed, and that the government has. Hopefully in a couple weeks the brakes will come on.

[tw]

Originally Posted by glatt

Sorry, Man. I know I hit a sore spot there.

It's not a sore spot with me. For example, we discussed Identity Theft. Two necessary objectives of Identity protection means 1) so that you can prove who you are and 2) so that you can confirm no one else is using your identity. Not possible without government action. Does that mean government is imposed on our lives? If my attitude had so changed, then I would now have to oppose those identity theft recommendations. ID protection requires a government bureacracy that works for us. I have not changed. That ID protection system is still necessary.

85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. George Jr is now advocating a required ID program for all Americans. What is different? His program is for the benefit of government. That is 100% different from what I advocated: a program to service only citizens and intentionally created to not serve government. Attitude toward government did not change. What changed: we elected a scumbag and his Army of theives (Abramoff, Haliburton, Delay, Trent Lott, et al), child molesters, and even people to protect those child molesters (Hasbert). People that MaggieL approved of in 2002.

Remember what MaggieL posted repeatedly - 'foaming and ranting':
First strike and your out!:

Ironic that one who would all but encourage world war - who proposes exactly what Tojo and Curtis LeMay promoted - would accuse others of ranting and foaming.

As a result, international kidnapping, wiretapping without judicial review, torture, unilateral and unjustified war, proliferation of nuclear weapons, and even blocking the Supreme Court from enforcing the Geneva Convention and Universal Declaration of Human Rights .... all these things MaggieL approved of as demonstrated in July 2002. Back then I was warming about this 'big dic' agenda that MaggieL still advocates today - including the arming of every citizen so that deaths are ....

So what has changed? The world is slowly learning what was obvious back in 2002; what MaggieL still advocates. Same idea that assumes a gun in everyone's pocket reduces crime also assumes 'might makes right' and justified 'Pearl Harboring' Iraq.

Not a sore point. Reality that should have been obvious to every Cellar dweller in July 2002. 30 years from today, younger Cellar Dwellers will do what I am doing now: challenge those youngsters to use a head on their shoulders and not one between their legs. 2800+ dead Americans directly traceable to 'big dic' thinking - such as from PA's Senator Rick Santorum, religious extremist - and advocated by MaggieL back in
July 2002 .