A Pro Musician Answers Your Questions About Professional Music

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Is there danger of being too good? Many people say they didn't like Steely Dan because it was too precise, for example, or that slick highly produced works are unauthentic or even worse, sterile.
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Disclaimer, this is a drummer's perspective. In short, this is a question of "micro-timing" which is what makes or breaks a groove. In the thread about syncopation I talked about subdivisions of the beat but never got back to what made Motown/John Bohnam "behind the beat" backbeats sound so great. I mentioned that Neil Peart is called the Professor because everything he does is cold, calculated math. But I never defined the difference as existing outside "the grid" of standard subdivisions. The difference in what creates a "groove" are in tiny "micro" timings. Milliseconds of variation that create a push and pull within a series of simple notes. That make Charlie Watts somehow sound different from Ringo Starr, playing "the same" beat. And the reason that 10 year old kids can "learn to play" a Vinnie Colaiuta beat off YouTube, but it doesn't quite sound right.

The micro-variations can be intentional, or more often the result of poor mechanics (unintentional). Learning the physics of how a stick rebounds, or when to play heel-up or heel-down, can allow you to control the feel of your beat rather than having it dictated by stiff, limited motions. You can also adopt a physical "attitude" on the kit in order to emulate a historical sound, i.e. sitting goofy like a big band dude in a suit.

Can you be too precise? Dave Weckl claims that people complained about his time feel for years, because he was too perfect. He had to learn how to relax and play looser. A tiny, almost unmeasurable amount looser. Afterwards he seemed better able to deliver what people wanted. Steely Dan did this too, buy the way, with every song. They created the perfect song in the studio, and then deconstructed it intentionally in order to get a human feel back in there. This "humanized" version was released to the album. I would say that they were successful, but I guess some people prefer... looser standards.

In answer to the very first iteration of your question, can you be "too good"? I would say, no. If you are sufficiantly good, you will know what is needed in a situation. Playing what is not needed or wanted cannot ever be classified as good.

[Gravdigr]

Originally Posted by Flint

Disclaimer, this is a drummer's perspective. In short, this is a question of "micro-timing" which is what makes or breaks a groove. In the thread about syncopation I talked about subdivisions of the beat but never got back to what made Motown/John Bohnam "behind the beat" backbeats sound so great. I mentioned that Neil Peart is called the Professor because everything he does is cold, calculated math. But I never defined the difference as existing outside "the grid" of standard subdivisions. The difference in what creates a "groove" are in tiny "micro" timings. Milliseconds of variation that create a push and pull within a series of simple notes. That make Charlie Watts somehow sound different from Ringo Starr, playing "the same" beat. And the reason that 10 year old kids can "learn to play" a Vinnie Colaiuta beat off YouTube, but it doesn't quite sound right.

The micro-variations can be intentional, or more often the result of poor mechanics (unintentional). Learning the physics of how a stick rebounds, or when to play heel-up or heel-down, can allow you to control the feel of your beat rather than having it dictated by stiff, limited motions. You can also adopt a physical "attitude" on the kit in order to emulate a historical sound, i.e. sitting goofy like a big band dude in a suit.

Can you be too precise? Dave Weckl claims that people complained about his time feel for years, because he was too perfect. He had to learn how to relax and play looser. A tiny, almost unmeasurable amount looser. Afterwards he seemed better able to deliver what people wanted. Steely Dan did this too, buy the way, with every song. They created the perfect song in the studio, and then deconstructed it intentionally in order to get a human feel back in there. This "humanized" version was released to the album. I would say that they were successful, but I guess some people prefer... looser standards.

In answer to the very first iteration of your question, can you be "too good"? I would say, no. If you are sufficiantly good, you will know what is needed in a situation. Playing what is not needed or wanted cannot ever be classified as good.

Heheh...He said beat off...

related link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhxnHVgL9PA