Why (some) GM products suck

[Shawnee123]

I'm just a big wimp about this kind of thing.

[classicman]

just pretend they are ... you know who. That should take care of your timidity pretty quick.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

damned predatory opportuninstic consumers

Meh. Lots of salespeople are honest. We just bought a car from one not too long ago. But you can't blame folks for being bitter.

[tw]

Originally Posted by glatt

But this Saturn which is probably made in Germany by Opel was not considered for the list. Why even mention the list if the Astra wasn't considered? ...

The steering is not relevant either.

The list says everything about Saturns - and Astra. Only reason for quality or perverted products: 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. When did Saturn get all management replaced four and more years ago?

Saturn is probably made in America even if the engine is an Opel design. For example, Ford's early 1970 Capri was one of the best driving cars. The American version of that car with the same engine was called Pinto. Even the same engine (2.3 liter with same Holley 5210C) performed completely different. "Opel" means, "It has potential." Nothing more.

That driver/reviewer likes steering that is not speed sensitive? Says a lot about the reviewer's integrity. Many also loved how Oldsmobiles and Pontiacs handled - even though those cars wandered all over the road. If its not speed sensitive (a mid-1980 technology), then does he really does not know how it handles. So where does he discuss a car that does handle good - such as the Ford Focus? Does he know anything about the product - or just hype "More Power".

Speed sensitive means the steering wheel (and driver) is engaged with the road - information that can even save your life (and other advantages).

70 Hp per liter is a requirement for all cars. You have assumed binary logic in a world that is ternary. If the car has a 70 Hp per liter engine and no brakes, is it still acceptable? 70 Hp per liter does not say it is good. But a car without 70 Hp per liter is bad - better sent from the factory to the junk yard.

Most GM products do not have a 70 Hp per liter engine. 70 Hp per liter says the Astra is at least one step above shit.

Don't waste time with Saturn only because someone feels it is good and then recommends it. Saturn has a poor reputation when we ignore popular myths and deal only with facts. Saturn had to concede and sell out to GM a decade ago just to survive. All those lists only confirm that reality.

Good reasons why companies such as Honda and Toyota have 70 Hp per liter engines in all cars for well over a decade. And why their dealers don't get screwed for warranty work. And why the service bulletins for those cars are so few. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. That Astra is a product of Rick Wagoner.

Why did GM do a campaign to bankrupt the LA Times? LA Times did a story that actually told the truth about GM products in April 2005. GM cannot let you know the truth. Did something change in only 3 years? Why is GM again screwing dealers with warranty costs? Too many product failures. Don't even waste time with Saturn.

Listed by others and me are numerous responsible manufacturers. Those many lists say it best. Reliable brands include Scion, Acura, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Infinity, Subaru, Hyundai, Kia, Lincoln, Mazda, etc. Even Ford (because Jacque Nasser was removed only recently - 8 years ago) has move back up to average reliability.

Even the Ford Focus is a superior consideration. It was never about foreign verses domestic products. It was always about who designed and built the car - bean counters or car guys. Free market principles prevail.

[Undertoad]

Speed-sensitive steering is standard on the XR models.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Speed-sensitive steering is standard on the XR models.

Not on all models. Why not? Which model was tested by Popular Mechanics?

Meanwhile, avoid the Saturn. It does not have reliability and value so often touted by those who 'feel' rather than learn.

Having said that, if Fiat does get Opel, then will Saturn be saved?

What did Marchionne do to save Fiat? What is he expected to do to save Chrysler? Remove the #1 problem - top management. 85% of all problems - including Saturn's poor reliability - would be directly traceable to top management. Buying a Saturn also says, "Keep destroying America. Keep destroying American jobs."

UT's many points posted up top are old news. DeLorean defined them in his 1970s book "On a Clear Day, You Can See GM". MaryAnn Keller defined them accurately and bluntly (ie The Reckoning(?)) - which is why GM banned GM employees from taking interviews with her. The LA Times defined the problem in 2005 - so GM tried to bankrupt the LA Times. And Michelle Maynard (?) of the NY Times has been quite blunt about this. The many points needed no response because some were defined even by Ralph Nader in the early 1960s - "Unsafe at Any Speed".

Problems have remained that long and were that well understood. For 30 years, GM would not put a major innovation in any car until required by a government regulation. GM did exactly what is taught in business schools. UT's points have been routinely known for decades.

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Meh. Lots of salespeople are honest. We just bought a car from one not too long ago. But you can't blame folks for being bitter.

oh..i was just being ironic. Not hard to shine in this business. It's pretty much down to not being a dick and not lying. If i had a nickel for every time i heard a customer tell me that we treat them SO much better than the OTHER place they went to....

...that might be slightly tilted, actually, since I only meet them if they make it past the salesmen.

I refer to the 'Filter Effect' when speaking about salesmen with other managers sometimes. What I mean is that if a customer actually buys a car from some of theses guys, then they have to be somewhat trusting or gullible. Some of the better salesmen have a zero filter rating....meaning....they can deal with just about anyone and sell them a car if they're buying.

[ZenGum]

Yeah, you can see her playing hard-to-get already.

If in doubt, get a corolla. They go for evah. Engineered by autistic savants and built by anal retentives.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

Yeah, you can see her playing hard-to-get already.

If in doubt, get a corolla. They go for evah. Engineered by autistic savants and built by anal retentives.

Well, I'm sold.

[Aliantha]

Yeah, you can always tell how good a model is by the number of uni students driving them 20yrs later.

[ZenGum]

2009 - 1992 = 17 year old corolla in driveway... had it 18 months, no trouble at all.

I occasionally see late '70s corollas about, they're quite recognisable.

[Shawnee123]

Heee, in college I drove a 73 Impala. That 450 engine would still kick it!

I might just drive this car until it actually dies. It seems to be the right thing to do, for a car that has hung in for so long. I'm in no hurry, though it seems I am.


And P.S. I would totally buy a car from LJ...I just am thinking about the distance and the costs involved there. There are some great salespeople out there, my younger sis-in-law being one, and I was put off by the local Honda online guy's approach. I might get a better experience if I just look around.

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by tw

85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management.

from now on, on the lumbernet, if you type tw% it comes out: '85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management'

[Shawnee123]

Is it just how Motorweek presents cars, that I was feeling like I had made a nice preliminary decision on a car?

I think I might like an Astra. 3 door. Sunroof? I haven't seen one at the local dealer which included sunroof. Standard shift is perfect because I'd rather drive a manual transmission.

[Pico and ME]

Shawnee, when I bought my Sentra I was able to pit two dealerships against each other. I was actually able to get the price down by $1500 doing that.