Torture memos

[Undertoad]

They were very good cites, Jill, and you have changed my opinion.

[Jill]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

They were very good cites, Jill, and you have changed my opinion.

Thank you, Undertoad. I respect you very much for that acknowledgment. I'm also glad to have changed your mind on this issue.

Don't think that I don't appreciate your gut reaction here. Some of these guys have perpetrated great evil against our citizens and our government, and some of them are or were involved in plots to do more of the same. I am against the death penalty, not because I don't believe the scum who find themselves facing that punishment don't deserve to die, but because I don't believe the government has the right to intentionally take a human life as a form of punishment. That doesn't stop me from fantasizing about being the one to pull the handle or press the plunger at some of these guys' executions. It's normal and natural to want to seek revenge. And it's normal and natural to sometimes very much want to beat the everlovin' fuck out of some asshole.

I would have a very hard time not shaking with rage if I were ever to be placed face-to-face with one of these pussbags. Restraining myself would not be easy, trust me.

But as a nation, subject to laws that we and the rest of westernized, civilized nations have adopted, we simply cannot resort to diminishing ourselves by behaving like barbarians. Here's another article with some interesting observations. It's worth reading the whole thing, but here's one of the more interesting bits:

. . .

Al Qaeda does not pose a threat to the United States' (or any of its allies') existence. Its real threat lies in provoking us to employ authoritarian measures that would weaken the fabric of our democracy, discredit the United States internationally, diminish our ability to utilize our soft power and undermine our claim to the moral higher ground in the fight against the terrorists.

In other words, the critical threat is not that the United States would fail to defend itself but that it would do so too well and in the process become less democratic and lose sight of its fundamental values. "Whoever fights monsters," warned Friedrich Nietzsche, "should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you."

. . .

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Jill

But as a nation, subject to laws that we and the rest of westernized, civilized nations have adopted, we simply cannot resort to diminishing ourselves by behaving like barbarians.

How exterminating the savage and the brutal diminishes us in any moral dimension quite escapes me, Jill. Performing damage control is simply sensible.

We won against Germany, Italy, and Japan by showing the hard visage of war and outfighting them -- outcontending them in the field they themselves chose. Did this turn us into fascists of any description? It did not. There is nothing that would do it now. As Hannity puts it, "Let not your heart be troubled" on that score. Countervailing violence is defensible violence, and I for one defend it, and I think I can overwhelm all your arguments against it. Don't mistake the distasteful for the unnecessary. Remember it is distasteful to be murdered.

The terrs have been choosing their field. It's one rather new to us in some ways, but not wholly new in others, for we remember Vietnam. In some measure, this is a war being fought by advertising, guerrilla theater, whatever you like, along with community services in tattered places, bombs, helicopters, bullets, beans, and bayonets.

I am happy to agree their ability to actually damage us is small in the grand scheme of things. Nonetheless, that does not mean they should be allowed to damage. They are the transgressors thereby.

Their transgressions must be kept bootless and fruitless, that they may cease to transgress. Or become too dead to manage a transgression. This is what those who are clear on the matter want.