Will Soldiers Have to Use Private Ins?

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Why? If I can afford it and feel it is worth it, why shouldn't I be able to pay for better or more extensive care? I have had a catastrophic coverage plan for quite awhile because on the whole that is the best balance for my family. A guy I know has the full boat plan through the same company. He feels it is worth the extra expense. We each get what we pay for. I kind of like that.

Spoken like a true rich person. Why should only wealthy people or really poor people have access to really great health care? My god, we are always talking about how this is the greatest (and richest) country ever. What is so fucking great about having such an unfair and unequal system? And ftr, you know some people have really great insurance, and when it comes time to pay up, the companies find ANY REASON not to pay. Do you know how many bankruptcies are filed every year because of THIS problem? And how it has destroyed many people's lives? Not to mention the fact that American BUSINESSES can't compete globally, because corporations in other countries don't have that expense. (Imagine that, me arguing FOR corporations!)

BS. People who work their asses off and still don't have healthcare are typically not earning enough to pay ANY taxes so you can take that myth off the plate.

WOW. Really? You know this how?

Nope, it isn't free. It would entail some pretty hefty taxes. Those taxes would have to be paid by someone, certainly not the lower income earners who we certainly don't want to raise taxes for. That means going back to the well of the people who already pay the majority of the taxes for yet another benefit that actually doesn't benefit them in any way. So while the program wouldn't be free, it would be free to the people who actually want it.

You are under this myth that rich people pay more taxes. They don't. Generally they pay about 17%. And, since they mostly make money off investments, and capitals gains taxes are only, what, 15%, they actually pay even less.

Which is no different than any of the government run programs currently in place. That's life, aribitrary lines are drawn because they have to be drawn somewhere. That means someone will inevitably be just on the other side of the line and feel slighted.

There shouldn't BE lines. IF you need a certain treatment, you should be able to get it. It's wrong that insurance companies (or the government) would withhold a treatment that could save a life or make a life more productive and better. Medicine should be between a doctor and their patient, not being dictated by insurance or government people who know nothing about medicine.

While there is a lot of waste in the world of medicine, let me just ask this: which organization is more likely to run cost efficiently, one who has no concern over costs and profits or one who is trying to get the job done and turn a profit?So you are assuming the government isn't motivated by greed?

I would say the health care industry is out of control BECAUSE of companies trying to turn excessive profits at the expense of the people they are supposed to be serving.

[lookout123]

The people they are serving are their shareholders, just like any other company. They make money for their shareholders by serving clients in as cost effective manner as possible. Welcome to business. They aren't there to be everybody's friend, they are there to turn a profit. If they don't turn a profit they don't stay in business and then they don't get to serve anyone.

There shouldn't BE lines. IF you need a certain treatment, you should be able to get it.

Sounds great, but unless you can convince everyone in the medical fields to work strictly as volunteers then it must be paid for somehow. Any ideas other than "our government should do it"?

You are under this myth that rich people pay more taxes. They don't. Generally they pay about 17%. And, since they mostly make money off investments, and capitals gains taxes are only, what, 15%, they actually pay even less.

Not that many of the so called rich people live purely off capital gains and dividends. If your 17% is accurate then I have two thoughts: 1) you can thank your progressive tax system for that, and 2) that 17% still equates to the lion's share of the tax dollars collected.

WOW. Really? You know this how?

Let's think this one through slowly. If they earn so little they are unable to pay for insurance, then they most likely earn so little they aren't paying income taxes either. You know those people who get more back than they paid in each year?

Spoken like a true rich person.

I wish. the beautiful thing is that if I work hard and make some good choices I can achieve some manner of financial independence in the future.

My god, we are always talking about how this is the greatest (and richest) country ever. What is so fucking great about having such an unfair and unequal system?

This is a great country. For the most part, the harder/smarter I work the more I produce. The more I produce the more I get to keep. Sounds pretty fucking fair to me. Unfair is making it so everyone gets the same thing regardless of their abilities and choices along the way.

And ftr, you know some people have really great insurance, and when it comes time to pay up, the companies find ANY REASON not to pay. Do you know how many bankruptcies are filed every year because of THIS problem? And how it has destroyed many people's lives?

I know it quite well. I have no idea how many BK's are filed each year because of this. I only know about my own some years ago when the insurance companies applied the letter of the law and chose not to cover my wife's problem pregnancy. It didn't ruin our lives one little bit.

There is absolutely nothing in the constitution or other documents of the time to suggest the goal of the founding fathers was for all americans to achieve the same level of success and have all the same things. We are promised life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. To people who whine and complain about the differences we see based on our work and decisions all I have to say is quit your bitching and start pursuing. It's up to you to achieve what you want.

Originally Posted by lookout123

...Let's think this one through slowly. If they earn so little they are unable to pay for insurance, then they most likely earn so little they aren't paying income taxes either. You know those people who get more back than they paid in each year?

Cite, please.

Here is how I would think this one through.

Approximately half of those w/o insurance work for small businesses who dont offer insurance.

Over 90% of persons who earn so little that arent pay income taxes (get more back than they pay) are earning less than $20,000/yr.

Are you suggesting that most small business employees earn less than $20,000/yr.

One reason that SCHIP was expanded was that an increasing number of parents of working families did not have access to affordable health insurance.....this includes people making more than 200% of the poverty level. They pay taxes!

[lookout123]

On a simple H&R block Calculator a family of four earning $50,000 annually with no special deductions owes exactly $0 in federal income tax.

Calculator

The same family earning $72,000 and deducting RE taxes and mortgage interest owed $1,548.

That same family bumped up to $105,000 owe $7,388 in federal income tax.

I'm self employed and so is my wife. Many small businesses may not offer medical insurance but most have access to plans that aren't paid for by the company. It is more expensive (I currently pay about $9,000 in medical insurance premiums) but that is a risk/reward calculation for the individuals.

I'll stick with my earlier statement - if they earn so little as to be unable to pay for insurance they most likely earn so little they aren't paying income taxes either.

[lookout123]

Incidentally, that same family earning $249,000 pays $51,086 to the feds.

Originally Posted by lookout123

On a simple H&R block Calculator a family of four earning $50,000 annually with no special deductions owes exactly $0 in federal income tax.

Calculator

The same family earning $72,000 and deducting RE taxes and mortgage interest owed $1,548.

That same family bumped up to $105,000 owe $7,388 in federal income tax.

I'm self employed and so is my wife. Many small businesses may not offer medical insurance but most have access to plans that aren't paid for by the company. It is more expensive (I currently pay about $9,000 in medical insurance premiums) but that is a risk/reward calculation for the individuals.

I'll stick with my earlier statement - if they earn so little as to be unable to pay for insurance they most likely earn so little they aren't paying income taxes either.

If you are saying that a a family of four earning $50,000 annually with no special deductions pays no income taxes.....that is just incorrect.

I assume you are referring in part to the earned income tax credit that caps at about $38k.

When I have time, I will post IRS (or CBO) data that a family with children making $50k pay about 15-18% of their income in federal income (and FICA) taxes.

I have seen no data anywhere that most employed persons who w/o health insurance pay no income taxes.

[lookout123]

I didn't input any information other than what I posted. the results are consistent with what I saw while working a project with some CPA's last year.

[Pico and ME]

@ 72,000 I do believe the normal tax would be nearer to $5000 for a family of four.

[lookout123]

Then it's on H&R Blocks head, not mine. I entered the same family of 4. W-2 income. $1500 property tax, $15,000 mortgage interest, and $500 charitable giving in each scenario.

[Pico and ME]

That mortage interest is really high...3X what we pay.

[lookout123]

6% on $250,000 = $15,000

[Pico and ME]

Whats the monthly on a mortgage like that? $200O? That would really cut into the take home pay when you only earn $72000 a year.

I guess we just like to live within our means.

[lookout123]

Lol. You won't find many people in Arizona and probably none in California who have a mortgage of less than $250,000.

[TGRR]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Incidentally, that same family earning $249,000 pays $51,086 to the feds.

Good.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

IF you need a certain treatment, you should be able to get it. It's wrong that insurance companies (or the government) would withhold a treatment that could save a life or make a life more productive and better.

[trolling]Why should we be providing any treatment to anyone? I thought you were in favor of "Natural selection and all of that." If people have a disease, maybe they're supposed to die.[/trolling]