Immigration Enforcement Un-American?

[DanaC]

Yeah, I wasnt being specific about Mexicans though. The conversation had moved on to asylum more generally.

[lookout123]

I still call Godwin on this one. It was a cheap line meant to make people cringe and think "oh, we can't have that". The reality is our current immigration issues have absolutely nothing to do with racial extermination. If Canada suddenly announces they'll execute anyone with green eyes, then certainly guidelines have to change with the new and temporary circumstances. A rush of green eyed folk would hit the borders and the US would have to make a choice about the whole group of people.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by lookout123

I still call Godwin on this one. It was a cheap line meant to make people cringe and think "oh, we can't have that". The reality is our current immigration issues have absolutely nothing to do with racial extermination. If Canada suddenly announces they'll execute anyone with green eyes, then certainly guidelines have to change with the new and temporary circumstances. A rush of green eyed folk would hit the borders and the US would have to make a choice about the whole group of people.

I call bullshit. Even though the issue might not be entirely focused on race, that aspect is still there and effects decisions and viewpoints consciously or subconsciously.

The question is whether these immigrants are beneficial to our society or not. If China starts deciding that engineers are a detriment to their society and they start moving over here, assimilate, and don't cause problems, no one would criticize. The problem is that many see the new illegal immigrants as more harmful to our society and the fact that they do not share our culture and looks adds to that.

Many people do not like the Somalis in Minneapolis, even though the vast majority are here legally, because they have a different culture, looks, sometime cause problems, and for the most part refuse to assimilate into our culture. I have a very strong feeling that the recent immigrant issue has a lot to do with this and the fact that many come here illegally brings out the activism and outspokenness to get them out. Without those problems, no one would care to enforce the law.

And, it is a recorded concept that in our racist society, people of color are not as trusted as whites. Blacks have been shown to be followed more often by security guards then whites. Blacks skipping school brings different reactions then whites skipping school. Whether this mindset is conscious or subconscious does not matter but it still exists and I can attest with my own initial reactions as well. Because of this, it is impossible to totally separate race from this issue.

It would be stupid to blindly throw around the word racist because that is false in many circumstances but it would also be stupid to separate race from the issue entirely because race do influence our decisions whether we realize it or not.

[TheMercenary]

I think that is an over charaterization of society at large. Pockets of racism exist everywhere in the world and everywhere in the US, no region or country is immune. It does not excuse it, but let's not generalize that it motivates much of our immigration policy or need for control.

[lookout123]

While there are some obviously prejudiced idiots in the world that isn't what this is about.

Anyone who wants to come be a productive member of our society and follows the legal process should be welcomed with open arms. Those that didn't follow the process can get out. It is as simple as that. Skin color is irrelevant.

[TheMercenary]

I can't agree more. I will say that I think we need to look at some cases where people are making a significant contribution to society and look at those on a case by case basis. But jumping the border and dropping a baby needs to stop.

[lookout123]

I'm all in favor of easing the restrictions, making the process easier, and opening up the country to anyone who will follow the damn legal process. At the same time the country needs to adopt the e-verify system, yank the license from any business caught knowingly employing illegals, and toss any illegal caught within the borders.

Make breaking the law more painful than following the law and surprise surprise people will probably follow it.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

I think that is an over charaterization of society at large. Pockets of racism exist everywhere in the world and everywhere in the US, no region or country is immune. It does not excuse it, but let's not generalize that it motivates much of our immigration policy or need for control.

No, it would not be an overgeneralizaton to state that racism influences who we are just like it would not be an overgeneralizaton to state that materialism influences us. Don't confuse racism with discrimination because they are not the same.

Racism is a social doctrine, not an action. Its similar to materalism (hence the -ism in both words). We all have materalistic influences because we were raised in a materalistic society and we, even people of color, all have racist influnces because we were raised in a racist society.

Does this mean you mean you are basing your views on race? No. I am stating that because of we are raised in a racist society it is impossible to seperate race from this issue.

Originally Posted by lookout123

While there are some obviously prejudiced idiots in the world that isn't what this is about.

Racism is not just prejudice idiots. Racism is anything that has to deal with putting one "race" of people above another. This can mean joining the KKK, this can mean going out of your way to help people of color, or it could mean that you have inital racist thought that you autmoatically discard and never act upon. Some types of racism are extremely bad and some are ones we can never rid from ourselves.

So, since we all, or vast majority, have instinctual internal racist thoughts we can conclude that we are subconciously racist to a point, even if we never act upon it. And since we are subconciously racist, that can influence our views on who is a productive member of society or not without us knowing.

Originally Posted by lookout123

Anyone who wants to come be a productive member of our society and follows the legal process should be welcomed with open arms. Those that didn't follow the process can get out. It is as simple as that. Skin color is irrelevant.

Yes, I thought I made that clear when I used Chinese engineers as an example. The deciding factor is the combination of illegal immigrants and the view of being non-productive members of society. My point is that race influences, even subtley, who we view as being productive members of society so it can not be discarded. And please don't take that last statement and make a hyperbole, that is not my intention.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Any foreigner that goes through the proper paperwork should be admitted in turn, without anyone guessing whether they will become a productive citizen or not.

[lookout123]

I didn't say we get to judge whether they will be or not. I said anyone who wants to be a productive member of our society and follows the legal process should be welcomed with open arms. I want our immigration process to be so open and easy that only criminals will attempt to enter illegally.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

No, it would not be an overgeneralizaton to state that racism influences who we are just like it would not be an overgeneralizaton to state that materialism influences us. Don't confuse racism with discrimination because they are not the same.

Racism is a social doctrine, not an action. Its similar to materalism (hence the -ism in both words). We all have materalistic influences because we were raised in a materalistic society and we, even people of color, all have racist influnces because we were raised in a racist society.

Does this mean you mean you are basing your views on race? No. I am stating that because of we are raised in a racist society it is impossible to seperate race from this issue.


Racism is not just prejudice idiots. Racism is anything that has to deal with putting one "race" of people above another. This can mean joining the KKK, this can mean going out of your way to help people of color, or it could mean that you have inital racist thought that you autmoatically discard and never act upon. Some types of racism are extremely bad and some are ones we can never rid from ourselves.

So, since we all, or vast majority, have instinctual internal racist thoughts we can conclude that we are subconciously racist to a point, even if we never act upon it. And since we are subconciously racist, that can influence our views on who is a productive member of society or not without us knowing.

Much of what you have stated may be true in a sociology class. In reality I don't think that most people think that way, nor could you generalize about society at large. There are some who are racist regardless of color and nothing is going to change the majority who think like that. It is my opinion that the majority of people don't think or function in society within a racist framework.

Further you have stated that "we all, or vast majority, have instinctual internal racist thoughts" and I think you would have a difficult time proving that notion. So I would have to reject that notion as being your opinion because I disagree.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by lookout123

I didn't say we get to judge whether they will be or not. I said anyone who wants to be a productive member of our society and follows the legal process should be welcomed with open arms. I want our immigration process to be so open and easy that only criminals will attempt to enter illegally.

I agree with you and I didn't mean that in a sense that we get to judge what groups are allowed in or not. I am saying that groups that are seen as unproductive are negatively judged by large groups of society. That in no way should determine who we allow in our not and I wasn't trying to accuse you of saying that we should.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

It is my opinion that the majority of people don't think or function in society within a racist framework.

Further you have stated that "we all, or vast majority, have instinctual internal racist thoughts" and I think you would have a difficult time proving that notion. So I would have to reject that notion as being your opinion because I disagree.

It would be hard to prove or disprove my argument because we are looking at what individuals initally think, not do. I still do support my theory because of two big factors.

One, I feel my own subconcious racist thoughts and everyone that I've talked to (many different backgrounds) feel it as well. That even includes blacks and other people of color.

I also notice that unless a person of color is raised in a enviornment with constant contact with whites, they tend to stick to people of their own race or other people of color instead of whites.

Those two really tell me something is up.

[classicman]

Lemme see if I get what you are saying here. You have these initial thoughts/opinions based upon a persons color/creed or whatever and you have issues with that.
What about animals? Do you have those same initial impressions of them? Like a hawk versus a robin, or a squirrel versus a skunk.

[Happy Monkey]

Where could that analogy possibly go?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by classicman

Lemme see if I get what you are saying here. You have these initial thoughts/opinions based upon a persons color/creed or whatever and you have issues with that.
What about animals? Do you have those same initial impressions of them? Like a hawk versus a robin, or a squirrel versus a skunk.

What are you talking about? What is my issue?

My entire point is that you cannot completely seperate race and immigration because of subconcious prejudice.