societal advances smackdown (0-1750 AD vs 1751 AD- present)

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

STFU of course you're trying to be argumentative. You love it.

I do admit, I love a good, respectful argument. I should be in politics.

You mentioned chemistry. Prior to the afore-mentioned 1773 chemical revolution, the science of chemistry was called alchemy. The goal of the activity was to find direct routes to creating gold, silver and other such useful things.

Under that science, it was theorized that all things could be broken down into component elements. Those elements were determined to be Earth, Water, Air, Fire, and Aether.

These are your "chemists" and that is pretty much the sum of their work from the beginning of civilization through 1773.

Good enough for sugarpop. It goes on the list and anybody who doesn't think that's chemistry has an ignorance to be stunned by.

Yes, it did start out that way, but Muslims made it into a real science.
...The study of alchemy and chemistry often overlapped in the early Islamic world, but later there were disputes between the traditional alchemists and the practical chemists who discredited alchemy. Muslim chemists and alchemists were the first to employ the experimental scientific method (as practised in modern chemistry), while Muslim alchemists also developed theories on the transmutation of metals, the philosopher's stone and the Takwin (artificial creation of life in the laboratory), like in later medieval European alchemy, though these alchemical theories were rejected by practical Muslim chemists from the 9th century onwards...

...An early experimental scientific method for chemistry began emerging among early Muslim chemists. The first and most influential was the 9th century chemist, Geber (Jabir ibn Hayyan), who is "considered by many to be the father of chemistry", for introducing:

* The experimental method; apparatus such as the alembic, still, and retort; and chemical processes such as liquefaction, purification, oxidisation and evaporation.
* Crystallisation.
* The chemical process of filtration.
* Pure distillation (impure distillation methods were known to the Babylonians, Greeks and Egyptians since ancient times, but Geber was the first to introduce distillation apparatus and techniques which were able to fully purify chemical substances).
* The distillation and production of numerous chemical substances.

Jabir clearly recognized and proclaimed the importance of experimentation:

"The first essential in chemistry is that you should perform practical work and conduct experiments, for he who performs not practical work nor makes experiments will never attain the least degree of mastery."

The historian of chemistry Erick John Holmyard gives credit to Jabir for developing alchemy into an experimental science and he writes that Jabir's importance to the history of chemistry is equal to that of Robert Boyle and Antoine Lavoisier....

...Al-Sadiq also developed a particle theory, which he described as follows:

"The universe was born out of a tiny particle, which had two opposite poles. That particle produced an atom. In this way matter came into being. Then the matter diversified. This diversification was caused by the density or rarity of the atoms."...

...Alexander von Humboldt regarded the Muslim chemists as the founders of chemistry. Will Durant wrote in The Story of Civilization IV: The Age of Faith:

"Chemistry as a science was almost created by the Moslems; for in this field, where the Greeks (so far as we know) were confined to industrial experience and vague hypothesis, the Saracens introduced precise observation, controlled experiment, and careful records. They invented and named the alembic (al-anbiq), chemically analyzed innumerable substances, composed lapidaries, distinguished alkalis and acids, investigated their affinities, studied and manufactured hundreds of drugs. Alchemy, which the Moslems inherited from Egypt, contributed to chemistry by a thousand incidental discoveries, and by its method, which was the most scientific of all medieval operations."

Fielding H. Garrison wrote in the History of Medicine:

"The Saracens themselves were the originators not only of algebra, chemistry, and geology, but of many of the so-called improvements or refinements of civilization, such as street lamps, window-panes, firework, stringed instruments, cultivated fruits, perfumes, spices, etc..."

Robert Briffault wrote in The Making of Humanity:

"Chemistry, the rudiments of which arose in the processes employed by Egyptian metallurgists and jewellers combining metals into various alloys and 'tinting' them to resemble gold processes long preserved as a secret monopoly of the priestly colleges, and clad in the usual mystic formulas, developed in the hands of the Arabs into a widespread, organized passion for research which led them to the invention of pure distillation, sublimation, filtration, to the discovery of alcohol, of nitric and sulfuric acids (the only acid known to the ancients was vinegar), of the alkalis, of the salts of mercury, of antimony and bismuth, and laid the basis of all subsequent chemistry and physical research."

George Sarton, the father of the history of science, wrote in the Introduction to the History of Science:

"We find in his (Jabir, Geber) writings remarkably sound views on methods of chemical research, a theory on the geologic formation of metals (the six metals differ essentially because of different proportions of sulfur and mercury in them); preparation of various substances (e.g., basic lead carbonatic, arsenic and antimony from their sulfides).."..

Geber invented the following chemical processes in the 8th century:

* Pure distillation (al-taqtir) which could fully purify chemical substances with the alembic.
* Filtration (al-tarshih).
* Crystallization (al-tabalwur), liquefaction, purification, oxidisation, and evaporation (tabkhir).

Al-Razi invented the following chemical processes in the 9th century:

* Dry distillation
* Calcination (al-tashwiya).
* Solution (al-tahlil), sublimation (al-tas'id), amalgamation (al-talghim), ceration (al-tashmi), and a method of converting a substance into a thick paste or fusible solid.

Other chemical processes introduced by Muslim chemists include:

* Assation (or roasting), cocotion (or digestion), ceration, lavage, solution, mixture, and fixation.
* Destructive distillation was invented by Muslim chemists in the 8th century to produce tar from petroleum.
* Steam distillation was invented by Avicenna in the early 11th century for the purpose of producing essential oils.
* Water purification...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy_(Islam)


I don't know, those things sound an awful lot like chemistry to me.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy_(Islam)

This article may need to be rewritten entirely to comply with Wikipedia's quality standards. You can help. The discussion page may contain suggestions.

This article needs references that appear in reliable third-party publications. Primary sources or sources affiliated with the subject are generally not sufficient for a Wikipedia article. Please add more appropriate citations from reliable sources. (November 2008)

This article may contain improper references to self-published sources. Please help improve it by removing references to unreliable sources where they are used inappropriately. (November 2008)

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

I don't know, those things sound an awful lot like chemistry to me.

I believe you, but they sound like the rudimentary foundations of chemistry as a science, which was much later to become a useful tool of mankind, to me.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I believe you, but they sound like the rudimentary foundations of chemistry as a science, which was much later to become a useful tool of mankind, to me.

OK, I'll give you the chemistry, but not the other things I mentioned. there. You won. :p

[dar512]

Chemistry (and all the other sciences for that matter) could never have been developed without the Arabic number system. Can you imagine doing logarithms in Roman numerals?

Other developments may be more spectacular, but the Arabic system and the invention of the zero are the most fundamental.

[glatt]

Without agriculture, none of it could have been done, because all those mathematicians and scientists would be spending all day rolling logs over looking for grubs to eat.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

OK, I'll give you the chemistry, but not the other things I mentioned. there. You won. :p

Yeah, I know your pissed we have kids graduating from High School not knowing the strategic art of war that was developed by Sun Tzu. Maybe we could make them go to summer school at West Point, between their junior and senior year, for that.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Yeah, I know your pissed we have kids graduating from High School not knowing the strategic art of war that was developed by Sun Tzu. Maybe we could make them go to summer school at West Point, between their junior and senior year, for that.

You're the one who said all the ancient knowledge was rudimentary and stuff we teach kids in grade school. (They teach Sun Tzu at West Point?)