Does Anyone feel like Bailing

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

AND continuing the further deterioration of workers rights. This is actually a direct shot at the unions.

Please explain. I'm not sure what you mean here.

[tw]

Originally Posted by tw

Goldman Sachs just announced that six top executives would "forgo" their $67million per person bonuses. Why is this significant? Because no other 'on government welfare' companies announced same. Meanwhile, Goldman will still pay something less than $1billion in bonuses to other employees. Thank god we rescued those bonuses.

Latest numbers from Goldman. Top executives will take a bonus cut. Bonuses will be reduced by 46%. Goldman Sachs took about $10billion in government assistance. Goldman will pay just over $10billion in bonuses to employees.

So the employees are practicing variations of "Bah Humbug".

[Pico and ME]

Originally Posted by classicman

Please explain. I'm not sure what you mean here.

The Republicans made it plain that their first objective in this bailout was major concessions from the unions. They have been attacking unions since Reagan, and this is a perfect storm for them to fire a direct shot against them. The Southern Senators want union wages to equal what the transplant companies are paying. Thing is, once that happens and once union wages stop being a benchmark for how other workers are paid, average wages will start to go down.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

The Republicans made it plain that their first objective in this bailout was major concessions from the unions.

I agree with that.
They have been attacking unions since Reagan, and this is a perfect storm for them to fire a direct shot against them. The Southern Senators want union wages to equal what the transplant companies are paying. Thing is, once that happens and once union wages stop being a benchmark for how other workers are paid, average wages will start to go down.[/quote]

I'm not as opposed to the wages as to the other benefits that the union workers have. 95% pay when laid off or ill, or the insane retirement benefits... for example. These make it obviously nonfunctional business plan. The companies seem to be virtually still employing every current worker AND the retired ones to a degree that is not manageable. There are other problems like the insane executive bonuses as well. I am not against the unions, but there are some issues that need to be addressed if these companies are to survive.

[Trilby]

(whispers: I am against unions )

[HungLikeJesus]

Unite against unions!

[glatt]

If we all join together, we CAN get rid of these unions.

[Trilby]

I see what you two did thar.

[lookout123]

I'm not against unions or union members. I am against union leadership. I remember when the UAW was "working hard" for new contracts with a farm implement company. These were contract renegotiations as it was already acknowledged the previous contracts were unsustainable. The membership had listed a few things they wanted saved and a list of things they were willing to sacrifice.

The union leadership came back and announced, "Great news! We've gotten them to add free legal representation in non-felony cases to your benefit package." They hadn't bothered to talk about the job outsourcing or the hourly wage. The geniuses got booed out of the room.

[Pico and ME]

There is no doubt that union leadership is as corruptible as politicians. Its a shame.

[kerosene]

I am against onions. They do terrible things to workplaces. There was a lady once whose workplace onion made her cry, even!

[Madman]

Hmmm... Haven't noticed this thread before.

Bailing out these megacorps from the mismanagement of funds that caused them to go backrupt in the first place? What I don't understand is why they are going bankrupt in the first place. I don't mean "why," but, I do mean WHY? Was greed so great that these Senior Exec's thought it better to deceived stockholders and the public into believing there is a bottomless supply of money that could get anybody credit if they simply had a job for more than a six month period?

I find it rather ironic that after the first $300 billion was dibbied out that the "Big-Three" came forward with their hands out! Then they were told they would not get it! LOL! They knew they would get it anyway - and they did!

Isn't it odd that all these people are losing their homes to foreclosures and not one of them has been saved from foreclosure. Just a little fishy here...

...and the news this morning told of CEO and top Exec bonuses reaching a dismal $1.6 billion dollars this holiday season.

I think we need a cage match of CEO's, CFO's, Top Execs vs the average American public. Winner takes all.

I want my cut...

[tw]

Originally Posted by Madman

Bailing out these megacorps from the mismanagement of funds that caused them to go backrupt in the first place? What I don't understand is why they are going bankrupt in the first place. ... Was greed so great that these Senior Exec's thought it better to deceived stockholders and the public into believing there is a bottomless supply of money ...

First appreciate why the money no longer exists. That was summarized in How the GAME is played.

Second appreciate what a finance guy does - how he thinks. What is the purpose of a company? To make a profit? Then the company is no different than the Mafia. And that is what is taught in business schools; openly advocated by stock brokers and finance bankers. In reality (and where America is productive), the purpose of a company is its products.

Third, learn from some latest example of that corruption. Goldman Sachs just took $10billion from the government. So this year’s bonuses will exceed $10billion. Whereas a finance industry salary is in the $hundreds of thousands, his bonuses are typically 10 times larger. Why? The purpose of their labor is to only enrich themselves - to make a profit rather than produce something - screw the economy, mankind, or anything else productive.

Another classic example is not limited to finance in finance companies. When finance people control corporations, the same corrupt attitude exists. GM was only four hours from bankruptcy in 1991. How did GM save itself? Did it fix GM's biggest problems - the world's worst cars? Of course not. GM did what any finance guy would do - Enron accounting and other money games.

GM became ‘profitable’ (Enron accounting) by shorting the pension funds. GM did this for so long that the entire profit from selling Hughes (estimated at $18billion) disappeared into pension funds. And then GM continued to short the pension funds rather than let engineers design cars.

GM invented another myth. Legacy costs. In an honest company, legacy costs do not exist. When that employee retires, the pension fund is fully funded. Instead, GM was using pension money to claim mythical profits - and that was fully permitted by the George Jr administration’s new deregulation attitudes. (After all, everyone knows unions are evil.)

Well, a GM car is now estimated selling for a $700 to $1000 loss. Obviously. A GM car needs two extra pistons to do what all 'American patriotic' auto companies all over the world do routinely. Worse, many Americans so hated American as to buy GM crap.

Since GM cars fail so often, then GM restored another cost controller's trick - stick dealers with all warranty costs. Therefore dealers would be hesitant to honor any warranty.

Well, GMAC was one of the few profit centers in GM. So GM offered cars at 0% financing. That way, GMAC profits could subsidize the world's most expensive and crappy cars. Resulting losses would not appear for many years later. IOW GMAC is now just starting to lose money because of 0% financing and other money game tricks from so many years ago.

GM has run out of places to play money games. The ponzi scheme is collapsing. They even got Clinton to give them $millions in 1994 to build a hybrid. Then made a crappy hybrid and pocketed the cash. GM had a hybrid in 1999 - and will not sell one until 2010. No problem. The Volt – a first generation hybrid – will save GM – if you also worship penises.

GM is only one example of what our bean counters and stock brokers have been doing for years. Now that pyramid or ponzi scheme has collapsed. Now all those mythical assets (see How the GAME is played.) are suddenly worthless. Suddenly America needs cash for all those debts. And no foreigner will provide that cash. So what does AIG, GM, et al do? They get the US government to print cash and to sell off America to foreigners. The government will not even admit who got the cash and how much (see the Bloomberg lawsuit).

No foreigner will buy American corporate debt. Stock brokers, bean counters, hedge fund managers, etc have been lying for years and decades. American balance sheets cannot be trusted (Enron accounting is alive, well, and protected by George Jr's SEC). So the US government will sell government bonds, then give that money to the most corrupt corporations.

Corrupt? It’s not just GM, et al who is corrupt. Add American consumers who bought that crap for the past 20 years. Those who endorse communism say, “Buy American.” "We make crap but we are the American company - so you must buy our products." That is communism. Not enough Americans believed in the free market – said, “Buy the best.” Therefore GM, et al could continue playing money games for decades and still make crappy products.

Fourth, economics is now taking revenge. Economics know nothing about fair. Economics will take revenge on anyone until it gets its just due. That means the little people will pay for executives who did almost nothing productive and were paid $15million and $67million annually in bonuses. Corrupt corporate leaders such as Nardelli were even paid $200million to just leave. They took the real cash. What were left were mythical assets that are now collapsing. A collapse means the government is printing money to cover those debts.

Fifth, above are only snapshots. The underlying principles in these examples are routine when the stock broker mentality (people who were typically the less intelligent people in school) controls American business institutions. Notice which companies are still productive or profitable? In those industries, bad (MBA trained) management is quickly removed. Carly Fiorina being a perfect example of an American enemy eventually removed because she was doing more than Saddam to destroy America. Yahoo management being another example of what must happen to keep America productive. Unfortunately people with Fiorina’s ethics are still alive and well entrenched. The most anti-American (people who routinely stifle innovation) are those who also say the purpose of a company is to make a profit.

In those snapshots: where the money went, why government is throwing money into these pyramid schemes, where that money will come from (and the inevitable drop in the American standard of living four and more years from now), who created the problem, the corruption and communism they openly advocate, Enron accounting is still alive and, well, how to identify the future destroyers of the American standard of living by simply observing missing product innovation.

Sixth, America went through this same thing in the 70s. We foolishly labeled America’s most anti-American industries as smoke stack industries because bean counters said so (there are no smoke stack industries). We invented dumping to raise tariffs – to protect defective management in so many American companies (as if we did not learn about that mistake in the Great Depression). We stifled innovation by creating MBAs – who could not see an innovation if it was stuck up their nose and that cannot be measured on spread sheets. And we keep interest rates low and printed money while lying about our real expenses – ie the Vietnam war.

How did we fix the problem? We sold off the world’s third largest industrial base. Economics took revenge on the American public including a reduction in the American standards of living, massive inflation, no jobs etc. Then we screwed every American to pay for the excesses and lies of the few. Finally we replaced anti-Americans corporate and political leaders with patriots (ie Chrysler, Ford, NYC, etc). We raise interest rates to something like 22%. Finally economics no longer had any reason to take revenge.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by classicman

95% pay when laid off or ill,

When that benefit was negotiated, it was set up so a worker laid off would get a supplement to their unemployment check that would add up to 95% of their take home pay, minus $7.50 (lunch money they didn't need when not working), for a defined length of time. There was a separate fund set up at the same time to cover the cost of this benefit and when that fund was depleted that benefit stopped for everyone.

Since most of the autoworkers got laid off every year, at model changeover, it was an attractive plum offered by the companies in lieu of a bigger pay increase. And since it came from a separate fund, it limited the company's liability. When tens of thousands of workers get laid off, that fund won't mean shit.

Unfortunately, the general public just gets the sound-bite that auto workers get 95% of their pay when they're laid off.

[classicman]

I understand that Bruce, but that still doesn't explain the many benefits and very generous retirement packages that that negotiated.
Also, Why does it take months for a "retool" at their plants when the foreign ones can do it in hours or days?
It just seems to me that a lot of these things are what is wrong with them. Its not just one thing, its many things that add up to an insane, unmanageable business plan.