Does Anyone feel like Bailing

[classicman]

I understand that Bruce, but that still doesn't explain the many benefits and very generous retirement packages that that negotiated.
Also, Why does it take months for a "retool" at their plants when the foreign ones can do it in hours or days?
It just seems to me that a lot of these things are what is wrong with them. Its not just one thing, its many things that add up to an insane, unmanageable business plan.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by classicman

I understand that Bruce, but that still doesn't explain the many benefits and very generous retirement packages that that negotiated.

Many benefits? Vacations? Sick days? Pensions? 40 hour work week? If it weren't for the UAW, nobody would get those things. We'd still be working six long days, then going to the poor farm when we couldn't keep up with the younger ones, or if we could, work till we died.

Negotiated is the key word. These benefits were all agreed to, often proposed by, the auto companies. They were all supposed to be funded as they accrued, but the companies didn't do that. They took that money and boasted of big profits, justifying big bonuses/perks for bean counters... those evil MBAs.

The best benefit they have is the medical insurance, making sure they can get medical care for the family members that need it, although that has limits too. What's different from most, is that in retirement they have insurance to supplement their Medicare. I'd like to see everyone get that.

Also, Why does it take months for a "retool" at their plants when the foreign ones can do it in hours or days?
It just seems to me that a lot of these things are what is wrong with them. Its not just one thing, its many things that add up to an insane, unmanageable business plan.

I agree. tw's ranting about lack of innovation is pretty much on target, but that's not the UAW's fault. Usually innovation makes their jobs easier rather than harder.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Many benefits? Vacations? Sick days? Pensions? 40 hour work week? If it weren't for the UAW, nobody would get those things. We'd still be working six long days, then going to the poor farm when we couldn't keep up with the younger ones, or if we could, work till we died.

Dunno about all that. I'm not willing to take the leap. I work well more than 40 hrs a week as does LJ and I'm sure a few others here just as examples. No I don't get any additional compensation either. Just the priviledge of keeping my job.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Negotiated is the key word.

That is the real crux of my point. These/those companies cannot afford to cover this stuff, be it a very generous retirement plan length or med benefits fully paid or the ridiculous bonuses they pay out. It is/has been a failed plan and has to change.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The best benefit they have is the medical insurance, making sure they can get medical care for the family members that need it, although that has limits too. What's different from most, is that in retirement they have insurance to supplement their Medicare. I'd like to see everyone get that.

Me too, but its simply too costly.

I have to pay for my family/dependents insurance - my employer only covers me. Is that out of the ordinary? How bout you?

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Negotiated is the key word. These benefits were all agreed to, often proposed by, the auto companies. They were all supposed to be funded as they accrued, but the companies didn't do that. They took that money and boasted of big profits, justifying big bonuses/perks for bean counters... those evil MBAs.

Completely irresponsible to blame employees when top management was reaping 34% and 67% annual income increases. Even reaping large bonuses when the company was losing money. Before anyone can blame the unions, first, it starts with top management.

Meanwhile, very little cost of a car is found in labor. The massive majority in a car's cost are in its design. The fools say GM must control costs. Those who come from reality say GM must innovate. Cost controls don't reduce costs. Only innovation reduces costs. Ie 1979 Chrysler and 1981 Ford. Where are costs highest? Where GM has been stifling innovation - ie robots to deliver parts to assembly lines. Not in labor costs.

New proposals would decrease labor costs from $28 per hour to $24. Numbers wildly different from those hyped in myths.

Rick Wagoner said GM has no problems with it products and assembly plants. Rick Wagoner said GM's entire problem is only due to the economy. Denial is alive and well. Did unions also create that problem?

[classicman]

Originally Posted by tw

very little cost of a car is found in labor. The massive majority in a car's cost are in its design.
Only innovation reduces costs.

Perhaps you could provide a pie chart showing the costs of a vehicle broken down.

I don't think I'm reading what you're writing....
there is no way that they can "innovate" immediately - or is there?

[tw]

Originally Posted by classicman

Perhaps you could provide a pie chart showing the costs of a vehicle broken down.

I don't think I'm reading what you're writing....
there is no way that they can "innovate" immediately - or is there?

The numbers were provided many times previously including number of man-hours in each car. One is expected to read those posts and grasp those numbers.

How did Iacocca turn Chrysler from record losses to repaying all bank loans (there were no government loans) in only four years? He started innovating immediately. Those stories have also been posted numerous times repeatedly. Why did Chrysler have record profits in only four years? Innovation typically takes four to ten years to appear on a spread sheet. Rather obvious is when innovation started.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by tw

The numbers were provided many times previously including number of man-hours in each car. One is expected to read those posts and grasp those numbers.

How did Iacocca turn Chrysler from record losses to repaying all bank loans (there were no government loans) in only four years? He started innovating immediately. Those stories have also been posted numerous times repeatedly. Why did Chrysler have record profits in only four years? Innovation typically takes four to ten years to appear on a spread sheet. Rather obvious is when innovation started.

I read your posts, ya friggin scrooge! I just wanted to see the info in a nice pretty colored pie chart.

The second part of my post was regarding innovation and you seem to have given a very political answer.
So your answer to my original question regarding innovation is "NO. There is no point in innovating. They apparently don't have 4 to 10 years."

[tw]

Originally Posted by classicman

So your answer to my original question regarding innovation is "NO. There is no point in innovating. They apparently don't have 4 to 10 years."

Obviously GM has 4 to 10 years if responsible management exists. 1979 Chrysler also did not have one year to survive. A claim shouted even louder when the government refused them any money. Chrysler had to get their loans from banks ... who were not then flush with hundred of $billions in free government money. Banks, in turn, demanded productive changes and a restructuring plan. Suddenly Chrysler no longer was leaching money everywhere.

Until Iacocca got there, bean counters were so dumb as to keep factories working. Chrysler even covered the entire Michigan State fairgrounds of thousands of cars sitting for so long that grass was growing inside on the carpet AND those unsold cars had started to rust. That was their plan because a bean counter's only solution is to throw money at it. Deja vue GM 2008. GM does not have four years as long as Wagoner remains throwing money at problems. GM easily has four years if GM starts now fixing themselves.

Obviously GM could easily survive with bank loans. Of course the banks already have hundreds of $billions that they should be loaning. But that means Wagoner would have to admit that GM products and manufacturing plants are in dismal shape. Better to beg to a mental midget who does not require any solutions (ie "Mission Accomplished", bin Laden, etc), and who believes "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter".

GM will burn through that government $billions in months and come begging again. How curious that Wagoner was only saying last summer that GM had plenty of reserves and would easily weather through this turmoil. So he did nothing. Suddenly the burn increased to $1billion per month. Then $2billion per month. And still he did nothing. Today he still has no restructuring plan because Wagoner says GM's only problem is the economic downturn - not bad GM products. Why then is GM on the verge of total bankruptcy? Because Wagoner still denies GM's problems. Only bankruptcy would get him off his ass and out the door.

Had Wagoner been honest (no Enron accounting), then GM had no profits in seven years. But Wagoner is educated just like George Jr. He is an MBA - well trained in the art of denial and saying the right things. Like "Mission Accomplished", Wagoner still has no plans and says his products are winning against imports. Only problem? GM loses money on every Chevy car such as the Chevy Cobalt. Their products are that crappy.

The only reason GM does not have another four years? Wagoner does nothing to save GM. His only solution is to throw more money at it. That is what MBA routinely do. That was Ross Perot's complaint. GM throws money like a grenade at problems. Wagoner still claims GM's only problem is directly traceable to the economy - not to GM products. And George Jr agrees - giving GM and Chrysler (a company owned by rich men who don't need the money) $18billion for free. As so again, all Americans will be screwed - especially GM employees.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by classicman

Dunno about all that. I'm not willing to take the leap. I work well more than 40 hrs a week as does LJ and I'm sure a few others here just as examples. No I don't get any additional compensation either. Just the priviledge of keeping my job.

40 hours has been the standard industrial work week since it was championed by the UAW.
Non-industrial trades like construction, fishing, logging, etc, that are seasonally restricted, will vary.
Retail sales and the like are not comparable.
Jobs where you're not being productive all the time, but require being available, are generally longer hours.
I don't know what you do, but how much time does LJ spend waiting for the salesman to close the deal so he can go to work?

That is the real crux of my point. These/those companies cannot afford to cover this stuff, be it a very generous retirement plan length or med benefits fully paid or the ridiculous bonuses they pay out. It is/has been a failed plan and has to change.

It's only a failed plan because the companies failed to remain competitive, not because of their labor costs, but because of poor management. If the Big Three had followed the Jap car makers in their production methods, labor costs would be a moot point.

I have to pay for my family/dependents insurance - my employer only covers me. Is that out of the ordinary? How bout you?

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

That's been the policy at every company I or my husband have ever worked for.

When I worked for Tufts University and a small company, we had to pay for dependents coverage, but every large corporation has paid for both, until a few years ago. Now we have to contribute to both our own and dependents coverage.
Medical costs have skyrocketed since they paid Brianna all that money.

He also works a lot more than 40 hours a week.

I thought he was self-employed?

[tw]

From the Washington Post of 24 Dec 2008:

SEC Chief Defends His Restraint
Christopher Cox, the embattled chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission, is defending his restrained approach to the financial crisis, saying he has provided steady leadership as Wall Street's main regulator at a time when other federal regulators have responded precipitously to upheaval in the markets.

During his tenure, the SEC has watched as all the investment banks it oversaw collapsed, were swallowed up or got out of their traditional line of business. The agency, meanwhile, was on the sidelines while the Treasury Department and Federal Reserve worked to bail out the financial sector. And the SEC, by its own admission, failed to detect an alleged $50 billion fraud by Bernard L. Madoff that may be the largest Ponzi scheme in history.

But in his first interview since the Madoff scandal broke, Cox said he was not responsible for the agency's failure to detect the alleged fraud and that he had responded properly to the broader financial crisis given the information he had. Confronted with a barrage of criticism from lawmakers, former officials and even some of his staff, Cox said he took pride in his measured response to the market turmoil.

Just like other George Jr SEC Chairmen, he is proud that he did nothing to avert the meltdown. Harvey Pitts even refuse to accept a doubling of his budget after Enron. Deregulation is alive and well in an industry that most be most highly regulated do to the people who work in that industry - stock brokers. Cox is proud that he did nothing. Sounds like Karl Rove propaganda is still alive and well in the George Jr adminstration. Deny that a problem exists, let Rush Limbaugh tell the wacko extremists, and people will believe it.

How many corporate executives are currently being prosecuted by the SEC for their Enron style accounting? Zero?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by classicman

I understand that Bruce, but that still doesn't explain the many benefits and very generous retirement packages that that negotiated.
Also, Why does it take months for a "retool" at their plants when the foreign ones can do it in hours or days?
It just seems to me that a lot of these things are what is wrong with them. Its not just one thing, its many things that add up to an insane, unmanageable business plan.

When unions can get companies to pay 80 or 90% of a workers pay after he stops working the unions are no longer useful.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

When unions can get companies to pay 80 or 90% of a workers pay after he stops working the unions are no longer useful.

Evidently you didn't read my post explaining that doesn't happen.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Evidently you didn't read my post explaining that doesn't happen.

Really?


http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosins...A01-351179.htm

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5185887

http://wsjclassroom.com/archive/06ma...2_jobsbank.htm

[xoxoxoBruce]

Oh, ok. I thought you were talking about the sub-pay program.
I agree thats a bad system, I never understood why they bought that in the first place. But shouldn't the union ask for programs to benefit the people that are paying them, remember the company just has to say no.

Boeing has a small version of that, something like 60 or 70 people, that are held to fill in with experienced people if a department is suddenly shorthanded. The difference is when they are not needed to fill in, they are janitors cleaning the bathrooms and offices.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I agree thats a bad system, I never understood why they bought that in the first place.

Because it’s not a bad system if management is responsible. Toyota has the same thing without a union. Toyota is now redirecting employees to fix or modify currently idle assemble plants. Sending employees for retraining. IOW taking advantage of the situation.

IF GM management came from where the works gets done, then GM management would do same. Ironic, that is what some union employees complained to me while I was in a GM plant. The company is so bureaucratic - so out of touch with reality - that is just lets employees sit there - learn nothing - fix nothing - do nothing.

A company with responsible management would be investing in their assets - their employees. But to an accountant, those employees, retraining, or modifying an assembly line are called an expense. Toyota is conducting training programs. GM lets their assets just sit ther doing cross word puzzles.