Joe's musing about free will and God.

Elspode · 09-08-2008, 09:02 PM

If free will is just an illusion of chemical processes, then why would a God be required at all? Is God required to make vinegar and baking soda bubble up?

regular.joe · 09-08-2008, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspode

If free will is just an illusion of chemical processes, then why would a God be required at all? Is God required to make vinegar and baking soda bubble up?

Because free will would be quite a bit beyond the process.

Flint · 09-08-2008, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regular.joe

Because free will would be quite a bit beyond the process.

I think you vastly underestimate the process, and vastly overestimate what it takes to create the appearance of a free will.

What nature, or God if you prefer, is able to create is so much greater than what is required just to build a robot that thinks it can make decisions.

smoothmoniker · 09-09-2008, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

What nature, or God if you prefer, is able to create is so much greater than what is required just to build a robot that thinks it can make decisions.

We don't even know yet what complexity is required for step one, "a robot that thinks", let alone step two, a robot that conceives of itself having self-determination, but doesn't.

Urbane Guerrilla · 09-18-2008, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothmoniker

We don't even know yet what complexity is required for step one, "a robot that thinks", let alone step two, a robot that conceives of itself having self-determination, but doesn't.

Robot predestination.

There's the stuff of a comic SF novel in that. John Wesley is no doubt not spinning in his grave, but doubling up and seized with the hiccups.

TheMercenary · 09-11-2008, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspode

If free will is just an illusion of chemical processes, then why would a God be required at all? Is God required to make vinegar and baking soda bubble up?

Free will modified by chemical processes.

Ruminator · 09-13-2008, 01:25 AM

Quote:

In this way of understanding, God is the sum total off all the deterministic, Newtonian interactions between particles, all the pre-determined, set in stone, can't be changed chemical reactions, all the non-magical things that are happening in a specific way that is simply too complicated for us to understand; and when you add it all up, there is an emergence, the creation of a massive pattern that acts like an intelligence. God is just...everything. And since everything behaves a certain way, you get a certain God.

Quote:

So, I'm not even sure God has a free will

I agree Flint, with your Fatalist definition of reality and "God", S/He wouldn't have a free will.

Flint · 09-13-2008, 02:10 AM

More like determinism than fatalism; but the important thing is that the machinery of the universe is so many billions of times more complex than we will ever be able to understand that we never need to worry about simple, low-level subroutines like human free will.

Do you know why optical illusions work? Because our brains are designed to assume. We aren't reliable witnesses to our own experience. The proportions of a baby's face causes a release of oxytocin. It doesn't mean that babies aren't cute, just because we know this. It isn't a threat to our humanity to admit that we are simply another part of the physical universe.

And I don't find it disrespectful to God to say that he's just the program running on a giant, universe-sized computer. In a definition of the universe inclusive enough to include the so-called supernatural (actually just parts of nature yet to be understood by our own pea-sized human brains), I can't imagine any other definition of God that wouldn't be a major downgrade. Either he's EVERYTHING or he's just another bureaucrat.

09-08-2008, 09:02 PM	#1
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	If free will is just an illusion of chemical processes, then why would a God be required at all? Is God required to make vinegar and baking soda bubble up? __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

09-13-2008, 02:10 AM	#8
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	More like determinism than fatalism; but the important thing is that the machinery of the universe is so many billions of times more complex than we will ever be able to understand that we never need to worry about simple, low-level subroutines like human free will. Do you know why optical illusions work? Because our brains are designed to assume. We aren't reliable witnesses to our own experience. The proportions of a baby's face causes a release of oxytocin. It doesn't mean that babies aren't cute, just because we know this. It isn't a threat to our humanity to admit that we are simply another part of the physical universe. And I don't find it disrespectful to God to say that he's just the program running on a giant, universe-sized computer. In a definition of the universe inclusive enough to include the so-called supernatural (actually just parts of nature yet to be understood by our own pea-sized human brains), I can't imagine any other definition of God that wouldn't be a major downgrade. Either he's EVERYTHING or he's just another bureaucrat. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio** Last edited by Flint; 09-13-2008 at 02:18 AM.

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