Science, Religion, and the Surrounding Confusion. - Page 8

DanaC · 07-30-2008, 08:17 PM

Well, depends on your definition of proletariats really. Initially they were developed by and for the artisan class, the so-called working-class aristocracy.

miketrees · 08-03-2008, 06:56 AM

Back on 109

But that's kind of the point really. Labels I mean. It's not agnosticism that is irritating. It is the suggestion that agnosticism is a superior intellectual position to either faith, or atheism. Intellectual agnosticism presupposes that atheism is closed to the unknown. It is not. That would be as absurd as holding that faith is not open to doubt.

classicman · 07-30-2008, 08:57 PM

they're outdated

DanaC · 07-30-2008, 09:00 PM

In what way classicman?

classicman · 07-30-2008, 09:08 PM

They seem to create more problems than they solve. They drive up the costs of everything and make products virtually non-competitive in a world economy.

Aliantha · 07-30-2008, 09:13 PM

Is that because the cost of manufacturing products rises when workers ask to be paid enough money on which to live?

classicman · 07-31-2008, 09:02 AM

Here it is all to common that the "Union system" is being abused. I am not against a fair wage and don't intend to say that I have a better plan, but I've heard too many stories to the contrary.

Shawnee123 · 07-31-2008, 10:00 AM

While we watch GM plants shut down all the time. The industry can't keep up with 40 dollar an hour wages. And, I know many people who have worked in these union high-paying shops and many have said they really don't work very hard. Sometimes they play cards.

The Honda plants around here have a much better model, imho. They pay really good wages (25/hour is typical), have no union, the employees work their butts off, and everyone is happy. They tend to not need lay-offs and shutdowns.

xoxoxoBruce · 08-02-2008, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

snip~ but I've heard too many stories to the contrary.

The stories are never a complete picture, only the highlights, that are cherry picked, to make the storytellers point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

While we watch GM plants shut down all the time. The industry can't keep up with 40 dollar an hour wages. And, I know many people who have worked in these union high-paying shops and many have said they really don't work very hard. Sometimes they play cards.

The Honda plants around here have a much better model, imho. They pay really good wages (25/hour is typical), have no union, the employees work their butts off, and everyone is happy. They tend to not need lay-offs and shutdowns.

Which proves that American workers are willing to return a days work for a fair wage. If they are not working, ie playing cards, then it's definitely a management problem.

classicman · 08-02-2008, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The stories are never a complete picture, only the highlights, that are cherry picked, to make the storytellers point.

True, but I've heard them from both sides and the topic of conversation was not about this subject. Workers being paid $30 an hour versus $30 a month put are at a severe disadvantage in a world economy.

xoxoxoBruce · 08-02-2008, 12:54 PM

Trained, equipped and motivated, $30/hr workers, can certainly compete with $3/hr unskilled workers, by being more productive and producing better quality.

There is no union shop where a bum can't be terminated for not doing their job... none.
There's always contract language that requires management to follow a set procedure, to prevent termination at the whim of a supervisor, to make room for the wife's nephew, or without just cause.
You may not like him, but you can't fire him if he's doing his job properly.

I have, however, seen too many cases of terminated minorities/handicapped, going to the Labor Board (government) claiming prejudice, then being reinstated when in fact they were a bum. This is not an option for the rest of us.

classicman · 08-02-2008, 11:39 AM

...and as we all know 85% of all problems...

Cicero · 08-02-2008, 06:28 PM

I thought that they shut down the GM plants for trucks to make fuel efficient cars. I didn't know it was a Union thing.

xoxoxoBruce · 08-03-2008, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cicero

I thought that they shut down the GM plants for trucks to make fuel efficient cars. I didn't know it was a Union thing.

It's not, you were right the first time.

miketrees · 08-03-2008, 06:42 AM

Crikey DanaC you have done me cold.
How did you know I thought Atheists were less intelligent than Agnostics.
I guess you probably also know I think believers are dull non thinking cop outs.

You see its thing like this (your mind reading ability ) that keep me Agnostic

07-30-2008, 08:57 PM	#3
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	they're outdated __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

07-30-2008, 09:08 PM	#5
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	They seem to create more problems than they solve. They drive up the costs of everything and make products virtually non-competitive in a world economy. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

07-30-2008, 09:13 PM	#6
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Is that because the cost of manufacturing products rises when workers ask to be paid enough money on which to live? __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

07-31-2008, 09:02 AM	#7
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	Here it is all to common that the "Union system" is being abused. I am not against a fair wage and don't intend to say that I have a better plan, but I've heard too many stories to the contrary. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

07-31-2008, 10:00 AM	#8
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	While we watch GM plants shut down all the time. The industry can't keep up with 40 dollar an hour wages. And, I know many people who have worked in these union high-paying shops and many have said they really don't work very hard. Sometimes they play cards. The Honda plants around here have a much better model, imho. They pay really good wages (25/hour is typical), have no union, the employees work their butts off, and everyone is happy. They tend to not need lay-offs and shutdowns. __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

07-30-2008, 08:17 PM	#1
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Well, depends on your definition of proletariats really. Initially they were developed by and for the artisan class, the so-called working-class aristocracy.

08-03-2008, 06:56 AM	#2
miketrees Regulator of Squalor Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 37	Back on 109 But that's kind of the point really. Labels I mean. It's not agnosticism that is irritating. It is the suggestion that agnosticism is a superior intellectual position to either faith, or atheism. Intellectual agnosticism presupposes that atheism is closed to the unknown. It is not. That would be as absurd as holding that faith is not open to doubt.

07-30-2008, 09:00 PM	#4
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	In what way classicman?

08-02-2008, 12:54 PM	#11
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Trained, equipped and motivated, $30/hr workers, can certainly compete with $3/hr unskilled workers, by being more productive and producing better quality. There is no union shop where a bum can't be terminated for not doing their job... none. There's always contract language that requires management to follow a set procedure, to prevent termination at the whim of a supervisor, to make room for the wife's nephew, or without just cause. You may not like him, but you can't fire him if he's doing his job properly. I have, however, seen too many cases of terminated minorities/handicapped, going to the Labor Board (government) claiming prejudice, then being reinstated when in fact they were a bum. This is not an option for the rest of us. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

08-02-2008, 11:39 AM	#12
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	...and as we all know 85% of all problems... __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

08-02-2008, 06:28 PM	#13
Cicero Looking forward to open mic night. Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: New Mexico Posts: 5,148	I thought that they shut down the GM plants for trucks to make fuel efficient cars. I didn't know it was a Union thing. __________________ Show me a sane man, and I will cure him for you.- Carl Jung

08-03-2008, 06:42 AM	#15
miketrees Regulator of Squalor Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 37	Crikey DanaC you have done me cold. How did you know I thought Atheists were less intelligent than Agnostics. I guess you probably also know I think believers are dull non thinking cop outs. You see its thing like this (your mind reading ability ) that keep me Agnostic

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)