Disrespecting Modernity

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Griff

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. - Rush

Behind the finer feelings, the civilized veneer, the heart of a lonely hunter guards a dangerous frontier. - Rush

To me, the question is whether we are living in a way that is compatible with our evolutionarily aquired psychological characteristics, i.e. our programming. Because that stuff isn't going to change.

Also, I feel that the idea of "modernity" is a farce, in that every person who ever lived was living in the most modern era up to that point.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Also, I feel that the idea of "modernity" is a farce, in that every person who ever lived was living in the most modern era up to that point.

That's true, but I can't think of a period when the world changed so much in one lifetime.

[lookout123]

...and then God said, "Let there be light"...

What? we haven't had a good creationism thread in awhile.

[regular.joe]

Originally Posted by Griff

Sure but for most of human history there was a need to obsess for survival. Now when we obsess about stuff its often trivial. Quieting the mind helps us order our lives in the absence of a real threat of starvation etc...

Quieting the mind has been around a lot longer then modern convenience. Paying attention to right now, not to the fantasy world in our mind has it's advantages. Especially when we might be eaten, or attacked.

I believe a large problem with modern society is that we've come to believe that we are separate, apart from, and somehow above the world. Because of this we have no need to seek the spiritual. We live in a false sense of reality where the trivial is now important.

[Griff]

Thanks for the perspective .joe. You've been places where survival is in the front of the mind. That gives you a much clearer view. The obsessive stuff was good for finding roots and berries but lose sight of your surroundings and you're kitty chow.

Flint- Do you have any favorite authors in evolutionary psych? This line of thought is useful to me personally and professionally.

[Phage0070]

Originally Posted by limey

I'm not saying we should go back to the grow your own, kill your own lifestyle but perhaps a little more focus on now, a little more awareness of the present, wouldn't be a bad thing?

That is an excellent argument against disrespecting modernity. As modern people we have more awareness of the present than ever before in history; I can keep tabs on my aunt in Washington state from South Carolina without waiting 6 months for a letter to *perhaps* come through. People accuse society of being "out of touch" with their common man, when they don't realise that not long ago you would have had to *walk* a few miles between farms just to talk!

If anything we could use people to be more oriented toward progress. Stop yammering about how much you love looking at trees, and find a way to fertilize bauxite-laden rain forest soil so people can farm it without slash and burn methods. Stop taking for granted technology, stop being comfortable with our current progress, and make things better!

[Phage0070]

Originally Posted by Flint

To me, the question is whether we are living in a way that is compatible with our evolutionarily aquired psychological characteristics, i.e. our programming. Because that stuff isn't going to change.

Actually, I have to disagree on this point. One of the hallmarks of sentience is the ability to behave and react in a way not completely governed by evolutionary characteristics. Our intelligence in turn shapes our "programming" as we continue through life. Intelligence allows us to act against our natural instincts and get into a car; it would be lunacy to act in a way "compatible with our evolutionarily aquired psychological characteristics" and flee under a bush to gnaw on a twig or something.

Evolutionary programming changes over time (that is kinda the point), so we should instead make sure that our society is created in a manner beneficial to us in the evolutionary long run. Reward those who create progress, reward those who protect and aid us, and we can expect that 400 years from now those qualities will be in great supply.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

I believe a large problem with modern society is that we've come to believe that we are separate, apart from, and somehow above the world.

This I agree with.

Because of this we have no need to seek the spiritual. We live in a false sense of reality where the trivial is now important.

This I definitely don't.
The spiritual is a hangover from a superstitious past and doesn't aid us in any way apart from imposing random "rules" and the belief that something controls us and our actions. After all, if "everything happens for a reason" then we are not fully responsible for our actions. How can that possibly be a positive thing?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Phage0070

snip~ not long ago you would have had to *walk* a few miles between farms just to talk!~snip

Now we blow by the neighbors farm at 50mph, windows up, climate control on, 250 watt sound system blocking ambient bird chirps and squirrel chatter, yammering on the phone with someone we saw 5 minutes ago or will see in 5 minutes, maybe noticing whether the neighbors car is in the yard.

[limey]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Now we blow by the neighbors farm at 50mph, windows up, climate control on, 250 watt sound system blocking ambient bird chirps and squirrel chatter, yammering on the phone with someone we saw 5 minutes ago or will see in 5 minutes, maybe noticing whether the neighbors car is in the yard.

That is what I mean be focussing on the here and now. I'm all in favour of the many advantages of new technology (I can do the fortnightly grocery shop for my mum even though I live 300 miles from her thanks to online supermarket shopping with delivery services), but when technology is used to remove you from where you are (i.e. listening to you ipod when out for a walk in the country) then I think it is worth asking the question "Why do I want to be removed from here?" ... I know multi-tasking is supposed to be where it's at, but sometimes it's good to do just the one thing, with all your attention. JMHO etc etc

[xoxoxoBruce]

Especially if that one thing you're doing, is paying attention to what's happening around you.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

The average modern American has the equivalent energy output of about two hundred manservants to help him live -- well -- day to day, every day. Past ages had servants, we got appliances. It took half an hour to hitch the team up to a carriage; it takes half a minute to start a car. It took the wife or the washerwoman all Monday to do the week's laundry; now it's set it and forget it with the washing machine.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Flint

To me, the question is whether we are living in a way that is compatible with our evolutionarily aquired psychological characteristics, i.e. our programming. Because that stuff isn't going to change.

Originally Posted by Phage0070

Actually, I have to disagree on this point. One of the hallmarks of sentience is the ability to behave and react in a way not completely governed by evolutionary characteristics. Our intelligence in turn shapes our "programming" as we continue through life. Intelligence allows us to act against our natural instincts and get into a car; it would be lunacy to act in a way "compatible with our evolutionarily aquired psychological characteristics" and flee under a bush to gnaw on a twig or something.

Evolutionary programming changes over time (that is kinda the point), so we should instead make sure that our society is created in a manner beneficial to us in the evolutionary long run. Reward those who create progress, reward those who protect and aid us, and we can expect that 400 years from now those qualities will be in great supply.

Our evolutionary "programming" has rewarded us with the gift of being highly curious and adaptable; we quickly assimilate new information and thrive under previously unimaginable conditions. This doesn't constiture a departure from our evolutionary traits, rather it is a confirmation of exactly what they are--how we came to be so successful.

We are the same creature, the same design, in our modern culture, as what we have been for longer than it is possible for us to imagine. The lunacy is in assuming that our ancestors were frightened, stupid apes--and this is a dangerous lunacy, because it attributes to us a superiority that we haven't demonstrated and don't deserve.

Learning to speak Portugese, or play the Cello, or juggle chainsaws while riding a unicycle doesn't mean a person has "re-programmed" themself in an evolutionary sense; it means there are more culturally acquired, learned abilities that one has the opportunity to be exposed to.

Verbal, then written, and now electronic exchange of information has accumulated for us a massive stockpile of information that we now have access to, and are exposed to from birth. We aren't "genetically" superior to a primitive hunter gatherer just because he's never seen a TV before.

Evolutionary programming changes over time...

But it doesn't change over a lifetime, or a hundred lifetimes. Evolution s l o w l y grinds out changes over an unimaginably extended period of time.

And unfortunately, as successful as the process of natural selection has been in creating us, we no longer live under a set of circumstances where we are "evolving" towards loftier ambitions and more noble traits. Have you seen the movie Idiocracy?

[TheMercenary]

This thread calls for a Dinosaur cartoon!

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Griff

Flint- Do you have any favorite authors in evolutionary psych? This line of thought is useful to me personally and professionally.

Sorry, I don't have any offhand. At some point I must've used an article in Scientific American as a launching point for my own musings on the subject.