The Gap

[Sundae]

I honestly think it's a cultural thing.
I have never considered that "Narrowing the Gap" could mean anything other than raising the standards of those at the bottom of the heap. And I honestly don't think anyone I know would think that either.

If you raise living conditions (in any way) for the poor and disadvantaged, the gap is narrowed. Perhaps it's a uniquely American perspective that assumes and then rejects the prospect of narrowing it by lowering living standards elsewhere.

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Perhaps it's a uniquely American perspective that assumes and then rejects the prospect of narrowing it by lowering living standards elsewhere.

What??? Who? What government would bring it's citizens up to believe such a thing? Isn't it good for all citizens everywhere to work for the benefit of it's society as a whole?

Isn't American policy to give billions of dollars in aid relief to poor nations right along side other countries doing the same? I think the goal of any good society is to lift the standard up.

I am sure I must have misunderstood your comment SG. My appologies in advance if so.

[Sundae]

I really didn't mean it as a criticism!
Just that I have never read or heard of anyone questioning the term "closing the gap" to mean anything but raising standards for the poor.

Then within a short space of time here the query was raised - does this mean lowering standards anywhere along the line?

When I say a cultural difference I guess I mean semantically cultural. I definitely don't mean that Americans aren't committed to raising standards in the US.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Just that I have never read or heard of anyone questioning the term "closing the gap" to mean anything but raising standards for the poor.

Then within a short space of time here the query was raised - does this mean lowering standards anywhere along the line?

I guess I'm still not explaining it well enough. No one would ever literally suggest lowering standards as a meaningful definition of narrowing the gap. I was trying to illustrate the logical fallacy of including a comparison with the upper classes at all. To me, even semantically considering the level of the upper classes when trying to raise standards for the poor is the wrong attitude. I think you're right, it is semantically cultural, but I think the mental perception of the issue does affect the policies put in place, and thus the outcomes of those policies.

[Cicero]

I always thought of narrowing the gap as, "narrowing the gap".

Like what happens when I'm zipping my pants. Instant gap narrowing there!! Narrowing the gap so much, that the said, "gap" no longer exists. Extreme metaphor. I know. But it's a simple concept that somehow, is being made more complex than it is.

Carry on.

[skysidhe]

There seems to be a contradiction in terms which I bet is superficial. There is no American I am aware of that dosn't want societies standard of living to increase. Nobody WANTS public housing so that some people are kept down. There is public housing so people are not on the street. Society wants to bring the poorest people up to a standard of living that most people aspire to. I know in inner citys there are ghettos and slums. There isn't anyone that dosn't wish for the standard of living in those areas to increase.

I think we all want the same things as responsible citizens. I think there is just a confusion of terms or supposed ideology here on this thread.

It's just one person's question who dosn't represent society as a whole here.

I knew what she meant by closing the gap. It's the same semantics. Same language

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

I guess I'm still not explaining it well enough. No one would ever literally suggest lowering standards as a meaningful definition of narrowing the gap. I was trying to illustrate the logical fallacy of including a comparison with the upper classes at all. To me, even semantically considering the level of the upper classes when trying to raise standards for the poor is the wrong attitude. I think you're right, it is semantically cultural, but I think the mental perception of the issue does affect the policies put in place, and thus the outcomes of those policies.

Maybe it was just Dana's bleeding heart way of saying it. She probably dosn't represent a whole ideology.

to dana : bleeding heart = good= passion= go get'em

[HungLikeJesus]

Tax the rich/Feed the poor/Til there are no/rich no more

Ten Years After

[DanaC]

Maybe it was just Dana's bleeding heart way of saying it. She probably dosn't represent a whole ideology.

*chuckles*

'Narrowing the Gap' is a term used in government (local and national) it's a policy goal. It isn't my personal description of what I want to happen.

[skysidhe]

I guess I have alot to learn.

Being a democrat I do want the poor to find government assistance when needed but have the opportunity to learn new skills in self suficiency. To some republicans this means lowering their standard of living?

To some 'narrowing the gap' means 'anti capitalism' as in this article I'll leave a link to. I forget there is that nasty extreme right of the republican party. Oh maybe there are people who have a 'sink or swim' philosophy regarding the poor who are not extreme republicans but there I go mixing things up again.

So I went looking for references to 'narrowing' the gap in our literature on the web. I found this article. It seems SG was right after all. Some people actually do think that to narrow the gap means they will lose something personally instead of gaining something as a society which I prize more.

It's too much for my tired head to puzzle out but I'll leave you with the link to be amazed over. I'm going to bed.
nite!
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3524

[Cloud]

Here's where I live.....and then where I represent.

You don't live in the same political subdivision you represent?

Can you work on narrowing the gap by concentrating on services to the poor--and getting the rich to pay for it?

[DanaC]

You don't live in the same political subdivision you represent?

Nope. Though my first home up here (bout 13 years ago)was in the ward I now represent. You have to be a resident of the borough, but you don't have to be a resident of the ward. Bear in mind wards are quite small subdivisions, around 6000 households. Living in the ward is an advantage and desirable, but not a necessity. As long as you spend a reasonable mount of time there and make yourself available to the constituents who live there it seems to work.

Can you work on narrowing the gap by concentrating on services to the poor--and getting the rich to pay for it?

We already target services and help to those most in need and those services are usually funded by general taxation, so in effect yes. But...the causes of deprivation are complex, they require a range of solutions including ways of empowering people to help themselves. Much of the emphasis of the Narrow the Gap initiatives are to do with education and outreach. Schemes to engage the unengaged, help retrain those who need it, specific assistance to parents coping with financial strain or family breakdown, schemes to encourage better diet and exercise etc etc etc.

More needs to be done. It is not important that every child have access to branded trainers and a wii, it is important that they have the same opportunities for success and happiness and aren't stunted by a series of invisible walls and traps.

[HungLikeJesus]

Jesus: Surely you're not saying we have the resources to save the poor from their lot? There will be poor always, pathetically struggling, look at the good things you've got! Think while you still have me, move while you still need me. You'll be lost and you'll be sorry when I'm gone!

From here.

[smoothmoniker]

How do you think the current state of "The Poor" in most developed countries compares to 50 years ago? 100 years ago? Is their life expectancy increasing or decreasing? Is infant mortality rising or lowering? Are their educational options increasing or decreasing?

That's the only meaningful measure of a society that cares for it's poor. Measurements between the top and the bottom are pure political fodder - they are emotional appeals, based on an arbitrary and unjust sense of "fairness" that resonates with those who think they deserve what the few have.

[DanaC]

That's several times now it's been referred to as comparisons between the top and the bottom.

Narrowing the gap is not about narrowing the gap between the poorest and the wealthiest. It's about narrowing the gap between the living standards/expectancy/opportunities of the most deprived and what we consider to be an acceptable minimum standard of living.

Measurements between the top and the bottom are pure political fodder - they are emotional appeals, based on an arbitrary and unjust sense of "fairness" that resonates with those who think they deserve what the few have.

Deserve what the 'few' have, like an extra decade of life and drastically reduced likelihood of heart disease? Deserve what the few have, like a childhood spent developing healthy teeth instead of severe dental caries by the age of 8? Deserve what the few have like a school which fosters ambition and success in its pupils? Deserve what the few have, like decent, clean and affordable housing?

It isn't even about deseving what the few have. Its about having a right to what the majority enjoy.

only meaningful measure of a society that cares for it's poor.

This isn't about a society 'caring for its poor'. This is about a society accepting wider responsiblity for the social conditions in which its people live, grow and die. This about a society saying this is the line we draw and beneath that we will not conscience our people to fall. They aren't 'The Poor', they are simply citizens of the same country.