Kenya in Crisis

Originally Posted by Aretha's doctor

Oh. My God. This guy is really an idiot.

Sorry, Classicman. I apologise. I should never have jumped to such a hasty conclusion.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Aretha's doctor

Oh. My God. This guy is really an idiot. Did he not go to school or are the schools so deficiant of any information - other than American propaganda?

So the guy who forgot how to spell "deficient" is going to call some other guy an idiot. I see.

Let's see, chum; the simplest measure of the validity of what you are pleased to call "American propaganda" is probably the fact that by itself the United States is one fifth of the world economy, year in and year out. In several senses, we work. It's indisputable we work very well. We're the ones to beat, if that's possible.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I'm really tired of the "the poor shouldn't be complaining because they have it better than other countries" reasoning. Its just a cop-out. If we have a problem in our country, no matter how it relates to other countries, we should try to fix it in a reasonable manner.

Don't put words in my mouth, I never said that at all. I was speaking in terms of relativity. I think we all know there is a problem. To what degree and the decisions on how to address it are not mine to make.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

So you think everything is going to be just fine if when we stopped slavery? Everyone would like that to be the case, but it just isn't true. Blacks still represent the underprivileged class and there are still racial disparities as much as we would like to ignore and blame them on blacks.

I am not ignoring nor blaming blacks for anything. I did not say, nor imply that at all!

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Also, you are making it sound like we did blacks a favor by freeing them?

I said no such thing! Not even close. You want us to recognize a problem and correct it, yes? Well all I said is that is what we attempted to do so and still are attempting to address issues regarding racial bias. There is only so much a gov't can do to correct a problem through legislation though. Most of this particular issue may be cultural, not procedural.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Acknowledge the fact that the only reason you can live your life like it is today is because we took stole from, killed, and deceived the American Indians. You didn't kill anyone, but you are benefiting from your ancestors killing them.

Oh please - are you serious? Lets say that one caveman clan killed another clan and took their territory. This particular clan evolved into oh lets just say - Americans - Am I to blame for their actions too? I mean, seriously, how far back do you want to look?

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

There are no "great countries" that haven't exploited other countries or have benefited of the exploitation of others. America is no different.

That is why there is really no way of rectifying many of the situations that are present today. Yes, we are not doing the misdeeds that we have done in the past, but we are still benefiting from them and there is very little anyone can do about it except trying to speed of the healing process, which ironically usually does the opposite.

I agree.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

If we are arguing over abortion, why would I put out an argument for your side? The point of my argument is to say that America has done its fair share of misdeeds and then shouldn't be labeled a "good" country. Everyone knows of America's positive effects, so it is irrelevant using them in my argument. And please don't take me as we are a "bad" country either. We are as I said numerous times, a country that is just protecting our own interests, very little good or evil can come from that statement.

Re: the first sentence - To get to the truth instead of winning a pointless argument - Isn't that what we are trying to do here find reasons and answers? Or are we here just to argue. Heck, I don't want to waste my time on that.

America has made mistakes, yes, but overall is America a good or bad country? That is the ultimate question and I say its a good one. But again, that is just my opinion.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by classicman

Re: the first sentence - To get to the truth instead of winning a pointless argument - Isn't that what we are trying to do here find reasons and answers? Or are we here just to argue. Heck, I don't want to waste my time on that.

I agree with you, I thought our arguments were to find "the truth"? I am not going to purposely deceive or lie to anyone just to win and you have shown that you aren't going to either.

Don't put words in my mouth, I never said that at all. I was speaking in terms of relativity. I think we all know there is a problem. To what degree and the decisions on how to address it are not mine to make.

How was I putting words in your mouth?

Originally Posted by Classicman

#1 America's poor have it much better than virtually any other country.

Originally Posted by PH45

the poor shouldn't be complaining because they have it better than other countries

The only flaw I see out of my logic is that I said complaining instead of "it isn't such a big deal because...". For that, my fault, but my second sentence still backs up what I should have said in the first place.

I am not ignoring nor blaming blacks for anything. I did not say, nor imply that at all!

I was making a generalization with the "as much as we would like to ignore or blame...". That was more of a rant to make a point than an accusation towards you.

I said no such thing! Not even close.

I'm sorry, this is my fault, I changed my post and forgot to edit that.

But, when the topic goes to slavery and someone responds "we freed them didn't we", that almost always is in a context where they are making it seem like did they a favor by freeing them and that rectified the problem. You did say "we did free them right?" in a defensive manner, so I meant to questioned you to see what you meant. I first had it as an accusation, but then reconsidered to make it a question and forgot to take out the 'you'.

You want us to recognize a problem and correct it, yes? Well all I said is that is what we attempted to do so and still are attempting to address issues regarding racial bias. There is only so much a gov't can do to correct a problem through legislation though. Most of this particular issue may be cultural, not procedural.

For a broad generalization, yes, I want to recognize a problem and correct it but I don't mean that in the typical liberal way, which has made the problem even worse. There are ways the government can correct this problem, but it is in ways that are not being used now, and they are not the typical liberal way of thinking. It would actually seem more like a conservative solution than liberal.

And yes, I agree that most of it has to do with individuals as well.

Oh please - are you serious? Lets say that one caveman clan killed another clan and took their territory. This particular clan evolved into oh lets just say - Americans - Am I to blame for their actions too? I mean, seriously, how far back do you want to look?

You can take it as far back as you want and you will find the same thing. Actually, many of the American Indians we stole land from weren't actually the original settlers, which sticks to my point of Americans not being any better or worse than most other nations.

Also, I would like to point out that if any other country would do what we did the the American Indians in present times, we would see human rights violations up the a-hole. So this is a matter of hypocrisy and understanding of what we did to get the land we have now.

In reality, I am not really worked up about this because it has happened so many times before and will happen many times in the future, but the denial that we destroyed a continent of a diverse, advanced (in some parts, hence the diverse), and normal people to get what we have. There is nothing we can do to change the past and I don't even like talking about the morality of actually changing it but it is the denial that gets to me.

I am not accusing you with any of that, just making a point.

America has made mistakes, yes, but overall is America a good or bad country? That is the ultimate question and I say its a good one. But again, that is just my opinion.

Cool. I really don't have much disagreements with a general subjective view on the United States but I attacked what I saw was an objective view that the United States was good, which I disagree with on an objective level.

[aimeecc]

Although this discourse is interesting, I will point to the obvious - you will never agree nor see things through the others eyes. But unlike the Kenyans, the two of you aren't going to kill each other, then have your family kill the others family, then ravage the land the others family lived on.
I spent 6 months in Africa. I consider myself a liberal, or maybe a conservative liberal, or maybe a libertarian. Anyway, after 6 months there I have come to the conclusion the west (USA and western Europe) should leave en masse. CENTURIES of aid to them have done nothing. You can say the aid had an agenda behind it, but we (collectively) have built schools only to have them turn into squatting huts. Dug wells only to have one tribe refuse to let another tribe use it, and then when it breaks, the few people we taught how to fix it are either dead and taught no one else, or they've forgotten. We send food, to have one tribe use it as a weapon against another. We (collectively) have not been able to convince them to rise above their tribal roots - something that was accomplished in Europe (to a greater or lesser extent, arguably, depending on location) following the Peace of Westphalia in 1648. I had an Ethiopian Muslim tell me woman are lazy and should have no rights - all while I watched the women carry loads of sticks on their backs to go to the market to sell as firewood so they can feed their children, while the men were busy chewing quat (a drug) and sitting in a drug induced stupor. I went to the dedication of a new school - and watched the mayor of the town ask the aid organization "what are you giving me next?"
After centuries of aid, what the preponderance of the people in Africa know is that wait and the westerners will give you food. Our centuries of aid have created a continent that expects one hand out after another. I can't blame them - its all they know. But it needs to stop. After centuries of trying to bring them from tribal roots and trying to help them become self sustaining, and all of this has failed - maybe we should stop trying and let them solve it on their own. Maybe coming to know that America or England or France isn't going to drop of tons of rice will make them become self sustaining.
BTW, UN forces are not on "stand by" waiting to go to a crisis. There were no large indicators violence was going to happen to this degree. Kenya did not ask for UN help. So, how could the UN have responded? Anyone think of that?
As far as references to Darfur, the AU peacekeepers there are under a limited mandate that limits their involvement, and are ill trainined and equipped to deal with the mess. The main reason the forces are their is because the providing nations receive money for sending troops there. And its not as simple as red vs white. There are over 26 warring factions. An ill-trained and poorly equipped force definitely can't handle that, and quite frankly, neither can the US or any other western nation.

[Undertoad]

So, how could the UN have responded? Anyone think of that?

Oh be fair, they could have responded to the crisis by turning all the children into sex slaves.

It's what they do, and when they say they'll stop it, they just continue.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

A genuine patriot, tw, does NOT try what you are on record as trying here: cutting down absolutely every single tactic and strategy likely to result in our winning the war. Tw, you just can't bullshit people with normal minds. Particularly not you. Jeez, buddy, the only reason you try it is to gratify a subconscious masochistic urge: there are people here who think the stupid-Left needs a good hard spanking, one that will go on and on for seven generations.

[Aliantha]

there are people here who think the stupid-right needs a good hard spanking. One that will go on and on until you use the safety word.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by PH

The only flaw I see out of my logic is that I said complaining instead of "it isn't such a big deal because...” For that, my fault, but my second sentence still backs up what I should have said in the first place.

I meant that since our poor are better off than those in other countries are by comparison, we as a country are doing something toward the problem. I certainly did not say nor mean that the poor don’t exist or that we shouldn’t try to help the less fortunate become more independent & productive members of society.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by classicman

I meant that since our poor are better off than those in other countries are by comparison, we as a country are doing something toward the problem. I certainly did not say nor mean that the poor don’t exist or that we shouldn’t try to help the less fortunate become more independent & productive members of society.

This issue is a matter of perspective. The fact that you/we live in a first world country and yet still have people living in poverty is inexcusable however, the fact remains that economically, it is necessary for there to be a certain proportion of people to live under these conditions in order to provide jobs for all those that get paid to worry about them.

In order to remove this problem, the whole structure of society must be changed, and change doesn't happen very quickly.

[classicman]

Ali, I think it is impossible to remove ALL poverty. Just like utopia or perfection do not exist.

[Aliantha]

Well if you let yourself start thinking you could change the world, who knows what could happen.

[Ibby]

Just cause it can't happen is NO reason not to try.

[Aliantha]

Or even, just because you think it can't happen is no reason it can't.

[classicman]

ok and I'm the one that gets ridiculed for being optimistic or idealistic - Geez!