There are no illegal immigrants in America - Page 7

piercehawkeye45 · 12-30-2007, 05:02 PM

It really doesn't matter as long as people feel free or have other self-obligations that rate higher than freedom.

Besides, your definition of freedom is going to be different from someone else's.

Radar · 12-30-2007, 05:08 PM

I'm pretty sure getting locked up indefinitely without access to a lawyer or being charged with a crime goes against most people's definition of "freedom". So is being spied on by our own government. Having our property stolen by the government. Being murdered by our government, etc.

But hey, they only murdered my neighbor, not me...so I'm still free right?

Clodfobble · 12-30-2007, 08:31 PM

The thing you have to remember is that in ideal Radar-land, there are no income taxes and no social services--no public education, hospitals are free to deny even emergency care to anyone who can't pay... if you completely took away all things of that nature, most of the complaints about illegal immigrants would also disappear.

But then we'd be living in ideal Radar-land, rather than reality.

binky · 12-30-2007, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

I went to basic training in San Diego. It was beautiful then, and it still is.

Okay Radar you win basic training certainly trumps 30 years of living, school then working in a city

Radar · 12-30-2007, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

The thing you have to remember is that in ideal Radar-land, there are no income taxes and no social services--no public education, hospitals are free to deny even emergency care to anyone who can't pay... if you completely took away all things of that nature, most of the complaints about illegal immigrants would also disappear.

But then we'd be living in ideal Radar-land, rather than reality.

There's a place that was exactly as you described. It was the most free and prosperous nation on earth. It wasn't called "Radar-land", it was the United States of America. Back then we had better schools, a healthcare system nearly everyone could afford where doctors would come to your home, the poor and elderly had MORE help than they do now, and it was provided by those who genuinely cared about them, etc.

Radar · 12-30-2007, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by binky

Okay Radar you win basic training certainly trumps 30 years of living, school then working in a city

I go there often. I live less than 2 hours away and go to the outlet stores down there, and to Mexico or San Diego a lot. It's BEAUTIFUL down there RIGHT NOW. The standard of living there is FANTASTIC.

Aliantha · 12-30-2007, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

There's a place that was exactly as you described. It was the most free and prosperous nation on earth. It wasn't called "Radar-land", it was the United States of America. Back then we had better schools, a healthcare system nearly everyone could afford where doctors would come to your home, the poor and elderly had MORE help than they do now, and it was provided by those who genuinely cared about them, etc.

...and people ran around shooting all the indigenous people and stealing their land. Black people were slaves. Women weren't allowed to vote...etc etc etc...

Radar · 12-30-2007, 10:51 PM

Were they doing those things in 1920? 1930? 1940? 1950? 1960? 1970?

Most of the unconstitutional social programs, the department of education, etc. have been created since those times. In fact other than women's suffrage, you could go back to 1865 so you're looking at 100 years where nobody was a slave, where we had a government that pretty closely stuck to the Constitution (other than 1913), where we had unprecedented prosperity, made friendships with all nations, etc.

I love how people stupidly dismiss all of the great things America had back then because of 1 or 2 bad things that had more to do with the culture of the time globally than had to do with something wrong with America.

These are the same idiots who say, "The founders were rich white slave owners who didn't want women to vote...blah blah blah" as though that discounts any of the true freedom they fought for.

Aliantha · 12-30-2007, 10:58 PM

The point is that this utopia you're talking about was just as far from perfect as the utopia others think they live in now.

Radar · 12-30-2007, 11:05 PM

If that's your point, you have no point. Nobody said the world is perfect. I never said we lived in utopia. I don't believe utopia is possible. At one time, our government stayed out of our personal lives and it was a more secure, happier, and better time than it is now.

The valid role and scope of government does not include providing health care, education, charity, food, shelter, clothing, retirement, etc. for people.

Aliantha · 12-30-2007, 11:08 PM

Well you'd better get working on that time machine and blast yourself back there.

If you could make it snappy that'd be pleasant for the rest of us.

piercehawkeye45 · 12-31-2007, 12:01 AM

Radar, do you think there might be a reason why we have changed from the ways of the past?

Looking at modern hunter-gatherer populations, we have found that the murder rate is much lower than in modern society. Since we all used to be hunter-gatherers and since then we have adopted a police force that is seen as corrupt, it only makes sense that we get rid of the police force and see the murder rate decrease.

Or, there might be other variables that are leading to the problem, not the solution to those variables...

Radar · 12-31-2007, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Well you'd better get working on that time machine and blast yourself back there.

If you could make it snappy that'd be pleasant for the rest of us.

Or better yet, I can help take the country back now, and get rid of all the unconstitutional parts of government....either peacefully....or by other means.

Kitsune · 12-31-2007, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

Or better yet, I can help take the country back now, and get rid of all the unconstitutional parts of government....either peacefully....or by other means.

I can't wait for this movie to come out in theaters. Bruckheimer is doing this one, right?

Griff · 12-31-2007, 01:05 PM

Assuming that many innocent people will die in your revolution, how are you squaring that with the whole initiation of force issue?

12-30-2007, 05:08 PM	#92
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	I'm pretty sure getting locked up indefinitely without access to a lawyer or being charged with a crime goes against most people's definition of "freedom". So is being spied on by our own government. Having our property stolen by the government. Being murdered by our government, etc. But hey, they only murdered my neighbor, not me...so I'm still free right? __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

12-30-2007, 10:51 PM	#98
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	Were they doing those things in 1920? 1930? 1940? 1950? 1960? 1970? Most of the unconstitutional social programs, the department of education, etc. have been created since those times. In fact other than women's suffrage, you could go back to 1865 so you're looking at 100 years where nobody was a slave, where we had a government that pretty closely stuck to the Constitution (other than 1913), where we had unprecedented prosperity, made friendships with all nations, etc. I love how people stupidly dismiss all of the great things America had back then because of 1 or 2 bad things that had more to do with the culture of the time globally than had to do with something wrong with America. These are the same idiots who say, "The founders were rich white slave owners who didn't want women to vote...blah blah blah" as though that discounts any of the true freedom they fought for. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

12-30-2007, 10:58 PM	#99
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	The point is that this utopia you're talking about was just as far from perfect as the utopia others think they live in now. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

12-30-2007, 11:05 PM	#100
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	If that's your point, you have no point. Nobody said the world is perfect. I never said we lived in utopia. I don't believe utopia is possible. At one time, our government stayed out of our personal lives and it was a more secure, happier, and better time than it is now. The valid role and scope of government does not include providing health care, education, charity, food, shelter, clothing, retirement, etc. for people. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

12-30-2007, 11:08 PM	#101
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Well you'd better get working on that time machine and blast yourself back there. If you could make it snappy that'd be pleasant for the rest of us. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

12-30-2007, 05:02 PM	#91
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	It really doesn't matter as long as people feel free or have other self-obligations that rate higher than freedom. Besides, your definition of freedom is going to be different from someone else's.

12-30-2007, 08:31 PM	#93
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	The thing you have to remember is that in ideal Radar-land, there are no income taxes and no social services--no public education, hospitals are free to deny even emergency care to anyone who can't pay... if you completely took away all things of that nature, most of the complaints about illegal immigrants would also disappear. But then we'd be living in ideal Radar-land, rather than reality.

12-31-2007, 12:01 AM	#102
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	Radar, do you think there might be a reason why we have changed from the ways of the past? Looking at modern hunter-gatherer populations, we have found that the murder rate is much lower than in modern society. Since we all used to be hunter-gatherers and since then we have adopted a police force that is seen as corrupt, it only makes sense that we get rid of the police force and see the murder rate decrease. Or, there might be other variables that are leading to the problem, not the solution to those variables...

12-31-2007, 01:05 PM	#105
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Assuming that many innocent people will die in your revolution, how are you squaring that with the whole initiation of force issue? __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

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