There are no illegal immigrants in America

[regular.joe]

I suppose the really awesome thing is that Radar is not in jail, indefinitely right now, for supposing such a thing as armed overthrow of the government. Freedom of speech is a pretty cool thing.

Everyone who works for the government is not a bad guy. Most of the bad guys in government are elected. Makes me think. Doesn't mean we should shut down democracy.
The police are not the bad guys. Yea, some of em are card carrying human beings subject to the same whims and selfish actions as anyone else on earth. Doesn't mean we should shut down the police.

Selfless service is hard to find. The people immersed in selfless service aren't advertising. They are being selfless. for that reason, we see more of the bad then we do the good. Doesn't mean it's time to throw the baby out with the bath water.

In defense of the people we don't know who are toiling away doing their damnedest to protect and defend our society. Shortly after 9/11 there was a collective gasp, as many people in our nation asked "How did we allow this to happen?". "Who's responsible, who wasn't on watch???". Now, the same people are trying to get in the way of our defense. Sheesh, you can't have it both ways.

If you don't like something about the laws, and government in the U.S. then get involved in the democracy we have and work to get it changed. If the you fail in your attempt, then live with it. It's a democracy. Not getting your way here, and taking up arms over the issue makes you just another petty dictator who wants his way. Waaaaaa! Now give me my cake!! Childish, immature, and selfish, unable to look beyond yourself...only wanting what seems to be the easy way out. Unable to accept the reality of the community in which you live.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

I suppose the really awesome thing is that Radar is not in jail, indefinitely right now, for supposing such a thing as armed overthrow of the government. Freedom of speech is a pretty cool thing.

Everyone who works for the government is not a bad guy. Most of the bad guys in government are elected. Makes me think. Doesn't mean we should shut down democracy.
The police are not the bad guys. Yea, some of em are card carrying human beings subject to the same whims and selfish actions as anyone else on earth. Doesn't mean we should shut down the police.

Selfless service is hard to find. The people immersed in selfless service aren't advertising. They are being selfless. for that reason, we see more of the bad then we do the good. Doesn't mean it's time to throw the baby out with the bath water.

In defense of the people we don't know who are toiling away doing their damnedest to protect and defend our society. Shortly after 9/11 there was a collective gasp, as many people in our nation asked "How did we allow this to happen?". "Who's responsible, who wasn't on watch???". Now, the same people are trying to get in the way of our defense. Sheesh, you can't have it both ways.

If you don't like something about the laws, and government in the U.S. then get involved in the democracy we have and work to get it changed. If the you fail in your attempt, then live with it. It's a democracy. Not getting your way here, and taking up arms over the issue makes you just another petty dictator who wants his way. Waaaaaa! Now give me my cake!! Childish, immature, and selfish, unable to look beyond yourself...only wanting what seems to be the easy way out. Unable to accept the reality of the community in which you live.

I say it's childish and naive to assume you can make change from within the corrupt machine. It's designed not to change. And those in power work to keep anyone else from ever getting power. America is not a democracy. It never was. For awhile people pretended it was, but it's not; especially with the voting machines being controlled by special interests.

It is my right and my duty to take up arms against any government that violates my rights. You may want to read the Declaration of Independence.

My right to say what I want doesn't come from government so saying I intend to take part in an armed revolution to take the government back online does not prove that I am free. It proves they haven't violated this particular right as of this minute, but they may as they have with so many others.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Radar

America is not a democracy. It never was.

You are right. It is a Republic. Thank God it is not a Democracy.

[Undertoad]

They held Jose Padilla, so let's go bomb the Department of Energy! Those fuckers are stealing all my cellophane wrappers!

The country has gone to total shit since 1950! Well except that it hasn't, in any memorable way. When you step back and take a look, you may notice that things are really going quite well. Half our money is taxed away? I guess that's a sort of glass-half-empty thing, because the other side of that is we're so massively fucking rich that we don't even give a shit.

Gummint stayed out of personal lives back then? This is a libertarian meme which, I think, is a big lie, or at least a misunderstanding of how things are/were. If you care to skip the civil war we can start with the Jim Crow laws which mandated "separate but equal", which started immediately following. Those laws were a part of this wonderfully libertarian model you enjoy so well. Did you just not learn about them in public school or something?

Did you notice that it was federalism that ended those laws? Anti-freedom federalism?

Did you think it was better when 50% of us were poor farm families? Did you not notice that the period you say things got bad coincides neatly with the industrial revolution? Did you not notice that our ability to stay out of war with other countries - except for Mexico - and Spain via Cuba - ended with the invention of the airplane, which allows people to reach us in shorter than two weeks' time?

Jose Padilla held without charges, hell they fried Sacco and Vanzetti during this freedom-lovin' period. The libertarians of their era, they put 'em in the electric chair. Good times!

[TheMercenary]

Get over it guys, they are illegal and we need to stop the bleeding at the borders and prevent them from coming here illegally. Then they need to be documented and regulated. Period. Regardless of what Radar wants you to believe, this issue is not one of whether or not he believes if they are illegal. That is a dead end arguement.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Get over it guys, they are illegal and we need to stop the bleeding at the borders and prevent them from coming here illegally. Then they need to be documented and regulated. Period. Regardless of what Radar wants you to believe, this issue is not one of whether or not he believes if they are illegal. That is a dead end arguement.

The fact remains that they are not violating the law so they are LEGAL. The indisputable truth is that the federal government has no legitimate authority to create or enforce immigration laws and anyone who says otherwise is a liar or a fool.

There is no question as to the legality of these immigrants because there are no illegal immigrants in America and there won't be unless the U.S. Constitution is amended to grant the federal government authority over immigration.

Any time anyone uses the term "illegal" to describe undocumented immigrants, they are lying. They most likely have an ax to grind in the form of racism or xenophobia.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Radar

The fact remains that they are not violating the law so they are LEGAL. The indisputable truth is that the federal government has no legitimate authority to create or enforce immigration laws and anyone who says otherwise is a liar or a fool.

There is no question as to the legality of these immigrants because there are no illegal immigrants in America and there won't be unless the U.S. Constitution is amended to grant the federal government authority over immigration.

Any time anyone uses the term "illegal" to describe undocumented immigrants, they are lying. They most likely have an ax to grind in the form of racism or xenophobia.

What you state is opinion, not fact. I can tell you that the fact is that the arrest and detention powers of the illegal aliens entering the US illegally are real and legitimate. There is no whole scale release of these illegal immigrants based on legal appeal by contesting law you interpret it. If there is please provide objective facts which document these events.

Attempting to attack an argument based on accusations of "racism or xenophobia" is a straw man approach.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

What you state is opinion, not fact. I can tell you that the fact is that the arrest and detention powers of the illegal aliens entering the US illegally are real and legitimate. There is no whole scale release of these illegal immigrants based on legal appeal by contesting law you interpret it. If there is please provide objective facts which document these events.

Attempting to attack an argument based on accusations of "racism or xenophobia" is a straw man approach.

I am not stating an opinion, I am stating a FACT when I say the U.S. Government has absolutely zero legitimate or Constitutional authority to create or enforce immigration laws. The U.S. Constitution PROHIBITS the federal government from creating or enforcing immigration laws. I've proven this many times over.

This is black and white. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. I don't "interpret" the Constitution because it doesn't require interpretation. It's written in simple English and it means what it says and it says the Federal government has absolutely zero authority over immigration and has no implied powers because everything not enumerated in the Constitution is RESERVED as a power of the states or a right of the people.

Since there are no legitimate federal immigration laws, those who lie and claim immigrants are costing us money, that they are coming here for handouts, that they are closing hospitals, that they are here illegally, they are more likely to commit crimes than people born here, they are less intelligent than those born here, etc. have some other ax to grind.

They aren't here illegally, yet these people want to force them out. So if it's not a legal issue, it's a personal issue. And saying that it's either racism or xenophobia is truthful, not a straw man.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Radar

I am not stating an opinion, I am stating a FACT when I say the U.S. Government has absolutely zero legitimate or Constitutional authority to create or enforce immigration laws. The U.S. Constitution PROHIBITS the federal government from creating or enforcing immigration laws. I've proven this many times over.

This is black and white. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. I don't "interpret" the Constitution because it doesn't require interpretation. It's written in simple English and it means what it says and it says the Federal government has absolutely zero authority over immigration and has no implied powers because everything not enumerated in the Constitution is RESERVED as a power of the states or a right of the people.

Since there are no legitimate federal immigration laws, those who lie and claim immigrants are costing us money, that they are coming here for handouts, that they are closing hospitals, that they are here illegally, they are more likely to commit crimes than people born here, they are less intelligent than those born here, etc. have some other ax to grind.

They aren't here illegally, yet these people want to force them out. So if it's not a legal issue, it's a personal issue. And saying that it's either racism or xenophobia is truthful, not a straw man.

You are twisting the facts to meet your own needs to define law. You continue down this straw man approach by calling people xenophobes or racists and that is a failed path to make your case. You have not provided any primary resources to support your argument, you just want us to accept what you say on face value, and no one will do that on this subject. I have no idea how you think you can cherry pick legal issues at a federal government level and win an argument, because you can't and nothing you have stated to this date on this issue would be held up in court. There are Federal Statutes which make it illegal to enter our country in an unlawful manner.

"Congress enacted the McCarran-Walter
Bill of 1952, which combined existing immigration laws scattered throughout the federal statutes and recodified them into the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), located in Title 8 of the U.S. Code. The INA contains both civil and criminal laws that are applied to immigration issues. Traditionally,
the federal government has reserved civil enforcement power, such as verifying citizenship and deporting undocumented aliens, for itself, while allowing state and local governments some power over the criminal enforcement that supports illegal immigration control. While state police may investigate criminal activities such as a false identification or alien smuggling rings, federal
immigration officials will handle civil issues involving citizenship and deportation,
and do so without any input or assistance
from the state. However, this traditional
separation of sovereign powers is slowly eroding as states are granted, and in some cases are taking, more of a role in dealing
with illegal immigration."

http://www.legis.wisconsin.gov/lrb/pubs/wb/07wb6.pdf

All of the people of whom you speak are ILLEGAL ALIENS and in this country unlawfully. Get it, breaking federal statute. Means they can go to jail and be deported after a hearing in front of a Federal Magistrate.

[busterb]

Welcome Radar Jr.

[Clodfobble]

Radar, please rate the following situations in order of desirability:

1.) Unrestricted immigration, and no social services
2.) Unrestricted immigration, and expensive/universal social policies that only established citizens have to pay for
3.) Restricted immigration, and expensive/universal social policies that only established citizens have to pay for

Obviously you would strongly prefer option 1. But can you admit that option 3 is still better than option 2?

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Radar, please rate the following situations in order of desirability:

1.) Unrestricted immigration, and no social services
2.) Unrestricted immigration, and expensive/universal social policies that only established citizens have to pay for
3.) Restricted immigration, and expensive/universal social policies that only established citizens have to pay for

Obviously you would strongly prefer option 1. But can you admit that option 3 is still better than option 2?

Option 2 and 3 are the same to me. I don't support social programs for citizens anymore than I support them for non-citizens. And for the record, undocumented immigrants contribute more to the economy than they use in services, and not just more....BILLIONS more. They are a net gain to the economy and tax base and therefore don't cost American citizens a single penny.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Radar

Option 2 and 3 are the same to me. I don't support social programs for citizens anymore than I support them for non-citizens. And for the record, undocumented immigrants contribute more to the economy than they use in services, and not just more....BILLIONS more. They are a net gain to the economy and tax base and therefore don't cost American citizens a single penny.

Arent you the one that halfway proved that the 'undocumented immigrants' dont pay taxes, because you dont pay taxes (or at least know how to very easily dodge them) cause you dont believe that taxes are legal?

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Arent you the one that halfway proved that the 'undocumented immigrants' dont pay taxes, because you dont pay taxes (or at least know how to very easily dodge them) cause you dont believe that taxes are legal?

No, I'm the one who showed that undocumented immigrants pay plenty of taxes even if they don't pay income taxes. Though the ones who borrow a social security number get regular jobs and income taxes are taken out of that paycheck including social security which they NEVER collect from.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Radar

No, I'm the one who showed that undocumented immigrants pay plenty of taxes even if they don't pay income taxes. Though the ones who borrow a social security number get regular jobs and income taxes are taken out of that paycheck including social security which they NEVER collect from.

Most do not "borrow a social security number". Most work under the table for cash.

If the estimated net fiscal drain of $2,736 a year that each illegal household imposes on the federal treasury is multiplied by the nearly three million illegal households, the total cost comes to $10.4 billion a year. Whether one considers this to be a large sum or not is, of course, a matter of perspective. But, this figure is unambiguously negative and certainly not trivial. It is also worth remembering that these figures are only for the federal government and do not include any costs at the state or local level, where the impact is likely to be significant.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalfindings.html