Muslims say: Put Christ back in Christmas

[xoxoxoBruce]

I suggest you call the schools in your area, or any major corporation, and ask them what they plan on doing for Christmas. I'm willing to bet every one will tell you they are having a winter break... or some such euphemism.

@ SD, excellent link.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I suggest you call the schools in your area, or any major corporation, and ask them what they plan on doing for Christmas. I'm willing to bet every one will tell you they are having a winter break... or some such euphemism.

Taxpayer funded public schools not endorsing a religious holiday? This is not a surprise and certainly has nothing to do with people being "afraid" to wish people a Merry Christmas or "offending others". (Hint: public schools are secular.) Private schools, I'm assuming, would have a different answer.

The major corporation I work for has "Christmas Day" marked as an employee holiday this year (as they have for as long as anyone can remember), although that will change in the future -- we will not be given the day off. In its place, all employees will be given an extra floating holiday off to do with as they please. In my work environment in which a very large portion of the company doesn't celebrate Christmas, the change makes excellent business sense. For all the people that feel the need to complain about this, anyway: they'll get over it, their religion doesn't change, they still get the day off, the gifts will open the same, etc, etc.

And, yeah, I've heard all about how [major box store name here] is selling "Holiday Trees" this year or that [other major box store name here] has their employees say "Happy Holidays" to customers. In a population with varied beliefs, making your business appeal to everyone is good for money. What do you think December 25th really, honestly means to major retailers in this country? It's about selling as much crap to as many people as possible and that is no different than even fifty years ago. But selling Christmas decorations to people that don't even celebrate it? Pure business genius. My officemate started buying presents for her kids and putting up lights on her house but has no inkling of what the holiday means to Christians. They do it "because everyone else does" and don't feel any real religious attachment to giving their kids video games or putting a inflatable Santa in their yard.

So, really, the whole "Christmas fear" -- are you or anyone you know afraid to wish people "Merry Christmas" for fear of offending someone? Know anyone that is? I don't and I'm fairly certain the idea is made up to scare all the people that, for some reason, feel the need to have their most sacred beliefs validated by the wording on department store advertisement fliers.

In the end, no one is really being pressured by the "PC police" to keep their religious ideas away from others -- everyone is just as religiously free, in this country, as they ever were. Nothing the media has reported on in this "war" can change that.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Taxpayer funded public schools not endorsing a religious holiday? This is not a surprise and certainly has nothing to do with people being "afraid" to wish people a Merry Christmas or "offending others". (Hint: public schools are secular.) Private schools, I'm assuming, would have a different answer.

They closed for Christmas, they will close for Christmas, but they are not allowed to say so any more. Closing for Christmas is hardly endorsing a religious holiday in the USA... ask your officemate.

The major corporation I work for has "Christmas Day" marked as an employee holiday this year (as they have for as long as anyone can remember),

They are far behind the curve

In my work environment in which a very large portion of the company doesn't celebrate Christmas, the change makes excellent business sense.

Who are they doing business on Christmas Day?

My officemate started buying presents for her kids and putting up lights on her house but has no inkling of what the holiday means to Christians. They do it "because everyone else does" and don't feel any real religious attachment to giving their kids video games or putting a inflatable Santa in their yard.

Exactly, without changing the name.

So, really, the whole "Christmas fear" -- are you or anyone you know afraid to wish people "Merry Christmas" for fear of offending someone? Know anyone that is?

Yes, every manager at work, unless they are particularly good friends with the employee.

In the end, no one is really being pressured by the "PC police" to keep their religious ideas away from others -- everyone is just as religiously free, in this country, as they ever were. Nothing the media has reported on in this "war" can change that.

Not true.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Closing for Christmas is hardly endorsing a religious holiday in the USA... ask your officemate.

Okay, so if it isn't endorsing Christmas, then why are people so offended when they don't call it "Christmas"? What's the big deal?

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Who are they doing business on Christmas Day?

Customers in need of phone support, billing support, service outages, etc. Business doesn't stop on the 25th.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Yes, every manager at work, unless they are particularly good friends with the employee.

Really? Why?

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Not true.

Alright, I'll bite. How has anyone's religious freedom been violated because of The [supposed] War on Christmas?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Okay, so if it isn't endorsing Christmas, then why are people so offended when they don't call it "Christmas"? What's the big deal?

Recognizing in not endorsing, and because it is Christmas and not being able to say so in ridiculous.

Customers in need of phone support, billing support, service outages, etc. Business doesn't stop on the 25th.

Oh, ok

Really? Why?

Corporate ethics policy and "The Diversity Initiative". The people hired to administer these programs, are eger to prove the viability and necessity of their jobs. They are the PC Police with a Jesse Jackson zeal to do so. The easiest and best way to nail someone you don't like, is to be able to charge them with saying something politically incorrect. One guy got a general foreman busted for, calling him a sissy, by claiming he was queer and ofended by the term. He wasn't and he wasn't, but it worked.

Alright, I'll bite. How has anyone's religious freedom been violated because of The [supposed] War on Christmas?

It's you that are claiming this is a "War on Christmas", not I. If you read the link, or just the quote, the leaders of these British denominations felt there was enough concern among their flocks, to make a joint statement. I don't know if the concern is justified, but I agree with their statement.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Recognizing in not endorsing, and because it is Christmas and not being able to say so in ridiculous.

Ridiculous as it might seem to some, not calling it "Christmas" still doesn't change anything about the actual holiday for the people that celebrate it. Nothing is devalued, nothing really changes. Is it really that big of a deal?

Broward County, FL, schools give their students days off on many Jewish holidays, although their calendar makes no reference on any day off other than "Administrative Offices/Schools Closed". Its odd, though, as I've never heard of Jewish families complaining on the lack of calendar label.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

One guy got a general foreman busted for, calling him a sissy, by claiming he was queer and ofended by the term. He wasn't and he wasn't, but it worked.

That doesn't sound like the most pleasant work environment. I'm assuming you're suggesting that you can be fired for saying "Merry Christmas", then, if someone complains? I'm assuming it hasn't happened, yet, as that would be grounds for a most profitable wrongful termination lawsuit and that action would likely never be taken by the company again.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

It's you that are claiming this is a "War on Christmas", not I. If you read the link, or just the quote, the leaders of these British denominations felt there was enough concern among their flocks, to make a joint statement.

I raised the "War on Christmas" issue that was sensationalized by the media because I think that's not only where it was generated, but that's what it is limited to. It's a joke to anyone that doesn't subscribe to it. As for the article and their concerns about the removing of Christ as "the star of the show", I somehow think that it isn't the "PC police" most responsible for this, but perhaps the parents that get whipped into a seasonal consumer frenzy who's children can be found on the night of the 24th locked in concentrated prayer with their hopes that Santa leave them a new Xbox and a Gears of War disc to find come the morning. The people most responsible for the true secularization of Christmas are Christians. Government non-recognition and generalized greetings don't hold a candle to that.

[ZenGum]

Since this thread is about Britain, I was hoping Dana would pop in, but I guess she's too busy.

So in her absence I will mention that I recall her saying that a lot of the "antiChristmas" attitude was a myth generated by far right groups attempting to demonize minorities. I don't know how far things have really gone.

And I think Kitsune hits the nail, not quite on the head, but on the shoulder:

The people most responsible for the true secularization of Christmas are Christians.

I'd blame consumers, marketers, advertisers, and weak-willed parents who'd rather give their children some toys than some time.
Ok, these people may well be Christians, but their Christianity is only incidental in relation to this issue.

[slang]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Ridiculous as it might seem to some, not calling it "Christmas" still doesn't change anything about the actual holiday for the people that celebrate it. Nothing is devalued, nothing really changes. Is it really that big of a deal?

Replace the word "Christmas" with "Martin Luther King Day" in the sentence above.

[sarcasm]No, no big deal.[/sarcasm]

[slang]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

That doesn't sound like the most pleasant work environment. I'm assuming you're suggesting that you can be fired for saying "Merry Christmas", then, if someone complains? I'm assuming it hasn't happened, yet, as that would be grounds for a most profitable wrongful termination lawsuit and that action would likely never be taken by the company again.

First, one of these overly sensitive troublemakers makes a complaint. It's not going to be for someone saying Merry Christmas but it's the same type of person making the majority of these types of accusations and complaints. You know, those that think the US flag is a symbol of war and that it has no place in the work environment, someone that sees a bible on someone's desk that they may read over lunch.

It's actually not the "Merry Christmas", you are correct. It just starts the ball rolling for the HR person. The HR guy stops by your cube or does a drive by. Then he might stop to talk to you casually.

It gets the ball rolling for a host of other complete bullshit non-offenses.




.

[slang]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Corporate ethics policy and "The Diversity Initiative". The people hired to administer these programs, are eger to prove the viability and necessity of their jobs. They are the PC Police with a Jesse Jackson zeal to do so. The easiest and best way to nail someone you don't like, is to be able to charge them with saying something politically incorrect. One guy got a general foreman busted for, calling him a sissy, by claiming he was queer and ofended by the term. He wasn't and he wasn't, but it worked.

That's exactly correct. It's not that one incident may be considered cause for dismissal. It's when a minority complainer keeps complaining and searching for more ammo, and complaining and then going to see the HR people, and complaining to everyone, and going back to the HR people.

This is something that some of my minority work friends swear by. They use it as a sword.

Why? Because it works in this fucked up PC world that we have now.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by slang

That's exactly correct. It's not that one incident may be considered cause for dismissal. It's when a minority complainer keeps complaining and searching for more ammo, and complaining and then going to see the HR people, and complaining to everyone, and going back to the HR people.

This is something that some of my minority work friends swear by. They use it as a sword.

Why? Because it works in this fucked up PC world that we have now.

Yeah. In the good old days, it used to be that Chrisians could just refuse to hire a non-Christian (and whites refuse to hire non-whites), and avoid the whole situation.

Happy Holidays!

[slang]

Originally Posted by slang

Why? Because it works in this fucked up PC world that we have now.

I've also had some candid converstations with [newly second biggest minority] friends about how the [newly largest minority] citizens are "untouchable" under the PC rules of today.

slang: Welcome home brother! Now you understand the falacy of PC.

friend: Was it like that for you with [newly second biggest minority]s in the past?

slang: Oh please!

[slang]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Alright, I'll bite. How has anyone's religious freedom been violated because of The [supposed] War on Christmas?

Religious freedom?

No, I don't feel my religious freedom has been violated. Some feel as though theirs have been by calling this holiday Christmas though. From my experience these people are militant anti-Christians, they don't like Christmas, the word "God" on the money, the pledge, yadda-yadda-yadda.

There are some people that are very annoyed by anthing remotely Christian. That's fine. I can accept that. Why do we need to change the name of the holiday though?

I'm sure it makes perfect sense but not to me. Someone's civil rights are surely being violated by having to endure the horror of this society having Christmas instead of Winter Break.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by slang

There are some people that are very annoyed by anthing remotely Christian. That's fine. I can accept that. Why do we need to change the name of the holiday though?

I think the important question, with regard to schools, is are they really changing "Christmas Break" to "Winter Break" because they fear people being offended by, uh, the word "Christmas"? They seem to have pissed off a lot more people by changing it than they would have had they left it alone. At most, I figure they might be leaving off the religious holiday label so as not to obviously appear to give preferential treatment to any one group of people, which I feel they don't.

...and are they really changing it? I don't ever remember it being called anything other than "winter break", even all the way back to elementary school since the weeks off spanned well before Christmas all the way to several days past New Year's.

[slang]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

...and are they really changing it? I don't ever remember it being called anything other than "winter break", even all the way back to elementary school since the weeks off spanned well before Christmas all the way to several days past New Year's.

In the 70s it was called Christmas vacation in rural Pa. We didn't have all that many days off before or after new year's day though.