Will the Second Amendment survive?

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

I'd like to know why public school education makes a difference to this debate.

Edit: for the record, I think it's arrogant to ask a question like that and not explain why, especially when pierce asked for an explanation after answering the question.

Oh I'm sorry Ali, I didn't realize you had a time limit in place for conversations you're not involved with. Fuck off eh?

Pierce the reason why I asked is because I have intimate knowledge of the required curricula for elementary school - which includes the US history that should make the concept of natural rights abundantly clear.
I'm not trying to give you shit for being anti-gun, I'm just amazed and saddened that you don't seem to be able to grasp even the idea of inalienable rights. If anyone should be able to, it is a graduate of US public schools, whether they're a redneck or not.

Who gives us our rights?
You - ???
Me - We give ourselves rights by justifying our actions but society uses social norms and laws to influence which ones are more important.

No one gives us our rights. If they could be given (by society, by the king, by whomever) - they would be privileges.

[Aliantha]

Oh I'm sorry Ali, I didn't realize you had a time limit in place for conversations you're not involved with. Fuck off eh?

It's a public forum jinx. I can ask any question I like. I guess I could tell you to fuck off after interjecting in the convo I was having with Radar in the first place?

Aside from that, I was interested to know why you'd asked in the first place. I wondered what the relevance was to the topic.

[jinx]

You could, but you probably have more important shit to stir somewhere.

[Aliantha]

No, I probably wouldn't because I wouldn't speak to you like that.

[jinx]

You wouldn't call me arrogant for asking a question - or you wouldn't tell me to fuck off?

[Aliantha]

I wouldn't tell you to fuck off jinx. I thought that was pretty clear.

I do think not explaining why you're asking a loaded question like that is arrogant. Maybe that's just my perception after being told on this very site that public school education is inferior etc blah blah blah.

So, in conclusion, I apologize if you were offended by my statement, however it was more Radars suggestion that it was clear PH was public school educated that pissed me off, so perhaps I should have directed my question directly to him rather than leaving it open for comment.

[jinx]

Yes, it was actually Radar's snarkyness that made me need to step away from the discussion. It wasn't my intention to belittle pierce, I went to public schools myself. That's where I first learned about inalienable rights. Apparently things have changed though.

[Aliantha]

I think all education is what you make of it. I've seen some brilliant results from public education and some really shitty results from the most expensive private education.

It all comes down to attitude in my opinion. that of the student which generally is imparted by the parent.

I also believe education has changed a lot since the generation of schooling you and I went through. Schools have far more leeway now with how and what they teach and where the focus is. I suppose if you went to a school which focussed on different issues, you might come up with a different education, or if you have a teacher who encourages you to look at things from a different perspective.

Holding a very similar viewpoint as PH, I have to say that I don't think his education can be blamed. He's certainly presenting his argument very well in my opinion. I wish I had half the patience he has and a quarter of his doggedness.

[Radar]

You think he's presenting his argument well?

He has changed his position on society bestowing rights on people. He thinks our rights change based on what the opinion of our rights happen to be. In other words, if Hitler thinks you don't have a right to live and the "society" of Germany agrees, it means you don't have a right to live. He wants to shy away from the right to life. But the right to life is no different than the right to keep and bear arms, the right to private property ownership, or any of our other rights.

Jinx said it brilliantly

Originally Posted by Jinx

No one gives us our rights. If they could be given (by society, by the king, by whomever) - they would be privileges.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Radar

You think he's presenting his argument well?

Well, at least he's presenting an argument.

Your argument has been:
1) Because of gravity.
2) I've proven it in several unspecified locations.
3) I can shoot you.

[Aliantha]

Well you seem to understand what his argument is Radar. I'd say that means he's presented it well.

Whether you agree with his argument or not is another issue. One which we all know the answer to already anyway.

I disagree with your stance and I disagree with some of what jinx believes. I've stated the reasons why. Any further comment would be like flogging a dead horse.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Well, at least he's presenting an argument.

Your argument has been:
1) Because of gravity.
2) I've proven it in several unspecified locations.
3) I can shoot you.

Amen.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Well, at least he's presenting an argument.

Your argument has been:
1) Because of gravity.
2) I've proven it in several unspecified locations.
3) I can shoot you.

I've cited dozens of books and pamphlets he can read. I've explained it so simply a child can understand it. So you are either more dense than a child or just too stubborn to read.

I'll break it down once more.

Natural rights come from nature. We are born with our rights. They don't come from "society".

We are born with the RIGHT to life that even pierce doesn't dispute. Because we are born with the right to life, we are also born with the right to defend that life by any means necessary. Because we own our life, we own our body. Because we own our mind we have the right to think freely. Because we own our voice we have the right to speak freely. Because we own our labor, nobody else is entitled to it or to the fruits of it.

A right is the exact opposite of a privilege.

Michael Badnarik does a great job of explaining the difference between rights and privileges here....

http://www.constitutionpreservation....s/chapter2.pdf

Here are some links to pamphlets that explain natural rights and natural law...

http://www.constitution.org/law/bastiat.htm

http://jim.com/spooner.htm

Here is the Declaration of Independence

http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html

Here is the Magna Carta

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/magnacarta.html

Here is the U.N. Universal Declaration of Human Rights

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Here is Peter McWilliam's Book, "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do"

http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/aint


Take your fucking pick and actually read instead of lying by claiming that I haven't proved each and every word I've said, or that I haven't cited credible and reliable sources to verify what I'm saying

If you disagree with any part of anything I've said, you are a fucking blithering idiot.

[Radar]

I've also said that society is nothing but a group of individuals. Society has no more rights or powers than a single individual. If one person has no legitimate authority to tell another that they may not own a gun, neither do a thousand people, a million people, or a billion people.

If society decides what our rights are or bestows our rights upon us, where does society get this power or the rights? Society is made up of individuals. Clearly power comes from these individuals. And if individuals have power on their own before a society is created, it means individual people are born with these powers and they were bestowed upon us by nature.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Radar

A right is the exact opposite of a privilege. ~snip~ If you disagree with any part of anything I've said, you are a fucking blithering idiot.

I think this was from WIKI - I was doing investigating and forgot - sorry.

A privilege—etymologically "private law" or law relating to a specific individual—is a special entitlement or immunity granted by a government or other authority to a restricted group, either by birth or on a conditional basis. A privilege can be revoked in some cases. In modern democracies, a privilege is conditional and granted only after birth. By contrast, a right is an inherent, irrevocable entitlement held by all citizens or all human beings from birth.

Juat a little fuel for the fire. I am torn by this whole discussion - I was sure and now I'm vascillating on a workable definition.