Will the Second Amendment survive? - Page 5

icileparadise · 12-06-2007, 01:20 PM

When I grew up in England guns were rare, especially in crime: see ford transits and sawn-off shotguns, but I'm sorry a lot of teenagers have been killed by firearms in the U.K. recently, also by ever present stabbings.

Sundae · 12-06-2007, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icileparadise

Hey SD when I grew up in England guns were so rare I had to read comics to see them but today in the U.K they are common.

I'm with BeeVee on this. The only real guns I have ever seen have been on police at the airport. I may have seen armed police elsewhere and just haven't noticed, but I have never seen a civilian with a gun or heard a gunshot.

Quote:

What does your Welsh signature mean?

It's a bit cheeky. Welsh posters on another site tend to have their sigs in Welsh and I think it's a little insular. Mine is "I thank God I'm not Welsh" (as opposed to the Catatonia song which translates as "Every day, when I wake up, I thank the Lord I'm Welsh"). I love Wales and have nothing against the Welsh personally, just playing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beevee

I was however fearful of being mugged after dark and never ventured out at night.

I suppose it depends where you live. I have never been mugged but HM has been mugged twice - once very seriously, involving stitches and broken bones. Then again he was very drunk and was trying to befriend a heroin addict - a situation I don't plan to get into.

icileparadise · 12-06-2007, 01:49 PM

But where are the Americans out there - the 2nd amendt. was for their present army to bear arms to fight. Translated it means the Armed Forces. The present day Army not householders, civilian Joes like you and me but the Army. Sorry for getting hectic but that's my question. Who wants?

jinx · 12-06-2007, 01:52 PM

It's doesn't say "present army" anywhere, it says "the people".

icileparadise · 12-06-2007, 02:01 PM

The people. who were not an army. But crushingly defeated the Brits. That people became an Army. The militia which became the state army. The people do not have to bear arms because the 2nd Amendment is the Armed Forces, but if you need to want to have a mini arsernal of arms in your possession - so be it.

lookout123 · 12-06-2007, 02:05 PM

the people had weapons and were thus able to rise up and overthrow a tyrannical power. these same people in forming a new government were just as afraid of a homegrown tyrant. do you really think with that mindset that they would have any desire for all weapons to be held by a force that is an arm of the government?

BrianR · 12-06-2007, 02:10 PM

And doesn't the Constitution forbid a standing army?

The amendment specifies The People, not The Government or The Army.

Militia refers to ordinary, untrained citizens.

Radar · 12-06-2007, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icileparadise

Wait, I'm not an American but I thought the 2nd Ammendment says right to bear arms and militia meant: ( and here's my gap in understanding) At that time the said Amendt. was written the American militia defeated the Brits. To me the militia in the 2nd Amendt actually refers to the Armed forces as it was then - The USA Army as it is known today? N'est pas?

At the time of the founders, we had an army AND militias. The army was not enough to defeat the British, and it was the militias that allowed America to win.

Radar · 12-06-2007, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenGum

I'm not impressed.
All these articles still agree that the US leads the list for murders and rapes.
You haven't got anything about Canada or Australia.

I'm not trying to "impress" you. I picked the first 2 or three articles that showed up on google.

By all means go to fuckinggoogleit.com so you can learn how to look things up for yourself.

Radar · 12-06-2007, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regular.joe

On the contrary, you do need to go to Iraq to really know what is going on. To different Areas as well, as a broad example Diyala is different then Anbar. Both are different then Baghdad.

The only weapons that are confiscated in Iraq are the RPK heavy machine guns, RPG launchers with or without warheads, and like items. Oh yea, large ordinance like 155 Artilary rounds, Det cord and bomb/IED making materials. The Ak-47's that are confiscated are the ones that are hot to the touch, having been recently fired at U.S. or Iraqi troops or police.

Every household in Iraq is allowed to have one AK-47. It's Iraqi law.
It is unlawful for an Iraqi citizen to posses an RPG launcher, much as it is unlawful for an American citizen to posses an AT-4 rocket launcher.
U.S. troops support Iraqi law.

So, you would advocate all military personnel to refuse service or deployment to Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa, The Pacific Rim, Europe, and South America? Under the grounds that they have received unlawful orders to do so?

No, you don't have to be in Iraq to know what's going on. We're inundated with information daily about what's going on. Also, when America invaded Iraq without legitimate cause or provocation and started kicking down doors and taking not only guns (hand guns, AK-47s, rocket propelled grendades, etc.) it was still early in this unconstitutional war. America also shut down the Iraqi free press.

And yes, I'd defend the right of any person to refuse to follow unlawful orders to take part in any military action in another country that didn't follow a formal declaration of war. The U.S. military has one and only one purpose...to defend the land and ships of the United States from attack. It's not here to overthrow dictators, prevent other nations from developing nukes, train the military of other nations, to take part in peacekeeping or humanitarian aid missions, to enforce UN sanctions or resolutions, etc.

regular.joe · 12-06-2007, 02:38 PM

A militia is not the Army. Although the Army Reserve is a militia, it is a part of the Army. There are militias in the States that are not part of the Army.

June 14th, 1774 the Continental Army of the United States was formed. There were also militias separate from the Army at that time.

The Bill of Rights was ratified in 1789. There was a well founded Army, Navy, and Marine Corp. The writers of the Bill of Rights new the difference between the Army and a militia.

Radar · 12-06-2007, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icileparadise

But where are the Americans out there - the 2nd amendt. was for their present army to bear arms to fight. Translated it means the Armed Forces. The present day Army not householders, civilian Joes like you and me but the Army. Sorry for getting hectic but that's my question. Who wants?

The right to bear arms has always been and will always be an INDIVIDUAL right that has nothing to do with the military.

Radar · 12-06-2007, 02:52 PM

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/cri...cle2710596.ece

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=21902

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/ti61.pdf

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...pes-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...mes-per-capita

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/world...n_impulse.html

http://www.saga.org.za/wfsa_reports.htm

icileparadise · 12-06-2007, 02:56 PM

Yes all that is true but where did the Army eventually come from. The peoples militia became the army despite the Constistution, the Bill of rights the ammendments etc. I firmly believe that the 2nd Ammendment written in it's day was to lay the foundations for the army today. Politics.

regular.joe · 12-06-2007, 03:05 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165229,00.html

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middl...raq_06-17.html

I'm begging to think that you are not aware of what you are saying, or that you are mis representing on purpose.

12-06-2007, 01:52 PM	#64
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	It's doesn't say "present army" anywhere, it says "the people". __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

12-06-2007, 02:05 PM	#66
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	the people had weapons and were thus able to rise up and overthrow a tyrannical power. these same people in forming a new government were just as afraid of a homegrown tyrant. do you really think with that mindset that they would have any desire for all weapons to be held by a force that is an arm of the government? __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

12-06-2007, 02:10 PM	#67
BrianR Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,338	And doesn't the Constitution forbid a standing army? The amendment specifies The People, not The Government or The Army. Militia refers to ordinary, untrained citizens. __________________ Never be afraid to tell the world who you are. -- Anonymous

12-06-2007, 02:38 PM	#71
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	A militia is not the Army. Although the Army Reserve is a militia, it is a part of the Army. There are militias in the States that are not part of the Army. June 14th, 1774 the Continental Army of the United States was formed. There were also militias separate from the Army at that time. The Bill of Rights was ratified in 1789. There was a well founded Army, Navy, and Marine Corp. The writers of the Bill of Rights new the difference between the Army and a militia. __________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

12-06-2007, 02:52 PM	#73
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/cri...cle2710596.ece http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=21902 http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/ti61.pdf http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...pes-per-capita http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...mes-per-capita http://blog.washingtonpost.com/world...n_impulse.html http://www.saga.org.za/wfsa_reports.htm __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

12-06-2007, 01:20 PM	#61
icileparadise Coronation Incarnate Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Swiss Mountains Posts: 96	When I grew up in England guns were rare, especially in crime: see ford transits and sawn-off shotguns, but I'm sorry a lot of teenagers have been killed by firearms in the U.K. recently, also by ever present stabbings.

12-06-2007, 01:49 PM	#63
icileparadise Coronation Incarnate Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Swiss Mountains Posts: 96	But where are the Americans out there - the 2nd amendt. was for their present army to bear arms to fight. Translated it means the Armed Forces. The present day Army not householders, civilian Joes like you and me but the Army. Sorry for getting hectic but that's my question. Who wants?

12-06-2007, 02:01 PM	#65
icileparadise Coronation Incarnate Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Swiss Mountains Posts: 96	The people. who were not an army. But crushingly defeated the Brits. That people became an Army. The militia which became the state army. The people do not have to bear arms because the 2nd Amendment is the Armed Forces, but if you need to want to have a mini arsernal of arms in your possession - so be it.

12-06-2007, 02:56 PM	#74
icileparadise Coronation Incarnate Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Swiss Mountains Posts: 96	Yes all that is true but where did the Army eventually come from. The peoples militia became the army despite the Constistution, the Bill of rights the ammendments etc. I firmly believe that the 2nd Ammendment written in it's day was to lay the foundations for the army today. Politics.

12-06-2007, 03:05 PM	#75
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165229,00.html http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middl...raq_06-17.html I'm begging to think that you are not aware of what you are saying, or that you are mis representing on purpose. __________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

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