How Do You Define Morality?

DanaC · 09-12-2007, 05:13 PM

4th grade? That's 8-10 right? Unless you can present the problem to them in real world terms they will be able to relate to then you should present the problem in purely numeric terms.

A 9 year old living in a rural area may well never have experienced travelling by train. Alternatively they may have travelled on a train with an adult who would likely have taken care of details like reading the timetable and purchasing tickets.

In terms of it totally changing the maths: the mathematical question may remain the same, but the child's understanding of it may be hampered if an example designed to enhance their ability to relate to the problem instead adds confusion. If it was just a question of maths then they should have presented it as such. Burying the question in a real world situation is all very well, but if the child has no way to relate to that situation then they are being asked to abstract out the maths from a situation they don't understand.

glatt · 09-13-2007, 09:54 AM

Just as an aside, my sister used to work for Houghton Mifflin, which is a school textbook company. She was tasked with writing some of the word problems for one of the algebra books they were doing. She wrote our mother into one of the problems involving an airplane, since my mom was a pilot back in the day.

Seems to me that kids should know what a train is or what a plane is, and they should be able to figure out problems involving basic attributes of those vehicles. BigV's example of finding the area of a baseball field is completely different though. That does require more advance knowledge about what baseball is all about.

Flint · 09-13-2007, 10:06 AM

glatt, I'm pretty sure people know what a train is... I think the question was regarding train schedules. What are they? How do they work? I don't even know, I've never riden a train, or a subway. I've seen them in movies, so I know what they look like, but that doesn't really help.

Is something wrong with me, that I don't know about train schedules or subway stops? Maybe, but that shouldn't influence my score on a math test, should it? The math test is supposed to test math, not knowledge of trains. It's a math test.

I'm not saying I couldn't figure out the question, maybe piece together what they were talking about, through context, but I will say this: it will take me extra time, cause me extra frustration, and make the test harder for me than someone who rides the subway to school every day. A standardized test isn't supposed to do that.

glatt · 09-13-2007, 10:16 AM

I agree that a train schedule question is probably going to be harder than a train question.

I remember lots of questions in algebra I class about trains traveling at different speeds leaving at different times going to the same destination, and for those questions you don't have to know anything other than "trains are a mode of transportation." I had never been on a train then either.

BigV's baseball question is a very good example, because it's easy if you know how a baseball field is laid out, but it's impossible if you don't.

piercehawkeye45 · 09-13-2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

Is something wrong with me, that I don't know about train schedules or subway stops? Maybe, but that shouldn't influence my score on a math test, should it? The math test is supposed to test math, not knowledge of trains. It's a math test.

Yes, but learning just math is pointless, it is the application of math that is needed. For standardized tests, word problems should go or they at least be presented in a way that can be understood by everyone but when it comes down to it, students need to learn how to apply math to real life and that is where word problems come in. Not only does it work on application, it works on a student's ability to problem solve, which is needed beyond math class and the application of math in real life.

That brings us, or at least me, up to a problem. Standardized tests should be objective as possible and that would mean the exclusion of word problems but the learning of just math won't help a student much. The only thing I can think of if we decide to keep standardized tests is to have a separate section for math application.

Then there is also the problem that a lot of math does not have direct application but is just a base for more advanced math that does have direct application.

09-13-2007, 10:06 AM	#3
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	glatt, I'm pretty sure people know what a train is... I think the question was regarding train schedules. What are they? How do they work? I don't even know, I've never riden a train, or a subway. I've seen them in movies, so I know what they look like, but that doesn't really help. Is something wrong with me, that I don't know about train schedules or subway stops? Maybe, but that shouldn't influence my score on a math test, should it? The math test is supposed to test math, not knowledge of trains. It's a math test. I'm not saying I couldn't figure out the question, maybe piece together what they were talking about, through context, but I will say this: it will take me extra time, cause me extra frustration, and make the test harder for me than someone who rides the subway to school every day. A standardized test isn't supposed to do that. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

09-12-2007, 05:13 PM	#1
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	4th grade? That's 8-10 right? Unless you can present the problem to them in real world terms they will be able to relate to then you should present the problem in purely numeric terms. A 9 year old living in a rural area may well never have experienced travelling by train. Alternatively they may have travelled on a train with an adult who would likely have taken care of details like reading the timetable and purchasing tickets. In terms of it totally changing the maths: the mathematical question may remain the same, but the child's understanding of it may be hampered if an example designed to enhance their ability to relate to the problem instead adds confusion. If it was just a question of maths then they should have presented it as such. Burying the question in a real world situation is all very well, but if the child has no way to relate to that situation then they are being asked to abstract out the maths from a situation they don't understand.

09-13-2007, 09:54 AM	#2
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	Just as an aside, my sister used to work for Houghton Mifflin, which is a school textbook company. She was tasked with writing some of the word problems for one of the algebra books they were doing. She wrote our mother into one of the problems involving an airplane, since my mom was a pilot back in the day. Seems to me that kids should know what a train is or what a plane is, and they should be able to figure out problems involving basic attributes of those vehicles. BigV's example of finding the area of a baseball field is completely different though. That does require more advance knowledge about what baseball is all about.

09-13-2007, 10:16 AM	#4
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	I agree that a train schedule question is probably going to be harder than a train question. I remember lots of questions in algebra I class about trains traveling at different speeds leaving at different times going to the same destination, and for those questions you don't have to know anything other than "trains are a mode of transportation." I had never been on a train then either. BigV's baseball question is a very good example, because it's easy if you know how a baseball field is laid out, but it's impossible if you don't.

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