Ending God's Tax Exempt Status

[piercehawkeye45]

Yes, because sometimes the self-interest of the illegal immigrants is to use government sponsored programs and conservatives self-interest is usually to not have the government tax the people.

Conservatives want low taxes, so by illegals using government sponsored programs, they are raising the taxes, going against conservative's interests. And sometimes an illegal alien's best interest is to use government sponsored programs (health care, education, welfare), so there is a clear paradox. This conflict of interests is intensified by the illegal part, which goes against most conservative's morality system, which just adds fuel to the fire.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Yes, because sometimes the self-interest of the illegal immigrants is to use government sponsored programs and conservatives self-interest is usually to not have the government tax the people. Conservatives want low taxes, so by illegals using government sponsored programs, they are raising the taxes, going against conservative's interests. And sometimes an illegal alien's best interest is to use government sponsored programs (health care, education, welfare), so there is a clear paradox.

Illegal aliens use of our social systems have no effect on the level of taxes we pay. But the use of the systems by illegals does in fact decrease resoources that would have otherwise been available to legal citizens, the only ones that should be eligible for it, except in the case of emergency, and even then their governments should pay the bill not the US taxpayer.

This conflict of interests is intensified by the illegal part, which goes against most conservative's morality system, which just adds fuel to the fire.

Well you should be cautious to make statements like, "which goes against most conservative's morality system". That is an incorrect assumption.

[queequeger]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Well you should be cautious to make statements like, "which goes against most conservative's morality system". That is an incorrect assumption.

How is that incorrect? A major part of the conservative and neoconservative ideal is upholding the law and reverence fot the legal system.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by queequeger

How is that incorrect? A major part of the conservative and neoconservative ideal is upholding the law and reverence fot the legal system.

My point is that the terms "Conservative" and now "Neoconservative" are not well defined. Therefore it is difficult to make generalizations about what one group over another thinks or how they will act.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Illegal aliens use of our social systems have no effect on the level of taxes we pay. But the use of the systems by illegals does in fact decrease resoources that would have otherwise been available to legal citizens, the only ones that should be eligible for it, except in the case of emergency, and even then their governments should pay the bill not the US taxpayer.

So you are saying that there is a limited number of resources in government programs and that if there is a bigger demand then the current supply, the government wouldn't up the supply?

Well you should be cautious to make statements like, "which goes against most conservative's morality system". That is an incorrect assumption.

Can you explain? Everytime I've argued this subject it has also gone to how the illegal immigrants have broken the law so they shouldn't get government help. That goes down to morality nine times out of ten.

Originally Posted by queequeger

I try to avoid the concepts of right and wrong as often as possible, because it so difficult to tell if those morals even exist. Raising has so much to do with it.

I am basically where you are. I am a firm believer that morality is purely subjective and the base of everyone's morality can be found in society. You can find a society that has has embraced almost everything that we consider immoral in western society (cannibalism, slavery, infanticide, pedophilia, etc) besides obvious morals that would be too forced or those that would doom the society.

I try to make decisions involving other people based solely on the net gain of all involved instead of 'who's right.'

Yeah, even though it is nearly impossible to actually follow I try to make big decisions on what is best for society or the people around me in contrast to my own self-interests and find out what is more important and consequences of each.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

So you are saying that there is a limited number of resources in government programs and that if there is a bigger demand then the current supply, the government wouldn't up the supply?


Can you explain? Everytime I've argued this subject it has also gone to how the illegal immigrants have broken the law so they shouldn't get government help. That goes down to morality nine times out of ten.

The social programs ingrained in our governmental system. They are funded at certain levels, what ever that may be, long in advance of expenditure. The system gets X dollars and they have to make the program work with those dollars. There are no more. The supply is not "uped" because they have more need, they just do more with less. Everyone suffers because of it. Imagine, and I know this could never happen, if we suddenly removed all illegal’s from the system there would be much more for the legal citizens to have and the system would not be so taxed. Well until Congress found out and then they would just decrease the spending and use the money somewhere else.

Immigration laws are not morality based IMHO.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

The social programs ingrained in our governmental system. They are funded at certain levels, what ever that may be, long in advance of expenditure. The system gets X dollars and they have to make the program work with those dollars. There are no more. The supply is not "uped" because they have more need, they just do more with less. Everyone suffers because of it. Imagine, and I know this could never happen, if we suddenly removed all illegal’s from the system there would be much more for the legal citizens to have and the system would not be so taxed. Well until Congress found out and then they would just decrease the spending and use the money somewhere else.

Ok, that makes more sense.

Immigration laws are not morality based IMHO.

I am not talking about the actual laws, but the fact that illegal immigrants break them. Some people say it is justified, conservatives usually say it isn't justified.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I am not talking about the actual laws, but the fact that illegal immigrants break them. Some people say it is justified, conservatives usually say it isn't justified.

Define conservative in your own words.

Well explain how is it that you believe that "conservatives" think it is a moral issue.