Divorce

[DanaC]

She has not called the cops yet and why would she because they can just say she allowed him to talk/see her. The other one is, Deuce is wantingto talk to her as well. So he in fact isn't too worried about the restraining order and must trust her somewhat in that she hasn't called him in. He knows her better than we.

People lie. If the stakes are a better deal in the divorce and custody of children, then it has to be considered as a possibility. Even if it's unlikely, because the cost of calling that wrong are very fucking high if you're a Dad who wants access to his kids.

Of course Deuce wants to talk to her, he is in love with her and doesn't want the relationship to end. Newsflash, she clearly does.

I think that perhaps she is afraid due to something we do not know about but that she must still care enough to want to work through some things together with you in a friendly manner.

Has anything Deuce said given you even the slightest indication that she wants to work through anything in a friendly manner?

Deuce, kgg is telling you what you want to hear. he is doing so in all genuine good intent I am sure. But...it's still what you want to hear, not what you need to hear. That's my opinion anyway.

[Stormieweather]

You say you love your wife, but do you respect her? She has clearly stated what she wants (and doesn't want), but are you accepting that?

She is not half of you...she is her own person, with her own feelings, needs, desires, and choices to make. Love allows the other person to be free to go their own way, even if it hurts like all hell and honors their stated wishes, even if it rips your own heart out.

Self-esteem draws the line at continuing to give one's all when that is becoming destructive to one's wellbeing. When you feel like you cannot live without her, then you have possibly become overinvested in her and unhealthily enmeshed. Often, when that happens, the person who has done so becomes controlling and obsessive over their partner (although I do not know if that is true in your marriage).

If someone really loves, honors and respects another, they will not continue to argue a point clearly stated, call against their wishes, write them, and/or invade their world without an express invitation.

If your wife went to the trouble to get an RO, then she obviously has issues with your form of contact with her. Is it not possible to step back and allow her the space that she apparently so desparately desires?

"Approximately sixty-nine percent of all relationship conflicts never will be resolved. It is more important not to hurt the other person instead of finding out who is right or wrong."

Your relationship with your son is completely separate from the one with your wife. It is the one that you can affect at this point. Why not concentrate your energies on strengthening that relationship and doing what is necessary to preserve your spot in his life (visitation, contact arrangements, etc.)?

I do not believe that the greatest gift you can give your son is to love his mother, I believe the greatest gift you can give your son is to love him. Period. A steadfast, solid love that never waivers and is not dependant upon your relationship with his mother is much more important to a child than anything else. In fact, parent's relationships with each other should be kept totally OUT of their relationship with their children. Kids need to know that their mother and father love them even if/when the marriage breaks up and that they are not involved in that whatsoever.

Get an attorney, make unshakeable visitation arrangements and let time heal the wounds. When emotions have cooled down and the shock has worn off, there will be plenty of time to analyse, dissect and discuss what happened. Sometimes there is no understanding possible, one must simply accept the situation and make the best of it.

Time and space will usually bring clarity.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

You say you love your wife, but do you respect her?

Yes.

Do you require further support for my answer?

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

She has clearly stated what she wants (and doesn't want), but are you accepting that?

She has said many things clearly not all of them the same. I am trying to listen and understand with my heart, as well as my head. The mixed messages are real. We all do it from time to time to some degree. So my acceptance, it's necessarily mixed too. The situation becomes even more complicated when *my* desires are incorporated into the mix.

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

She is not half of you...she is her own person, with her own feelings, needs, desires, and choices to make. Love allows the other person to be free to go their own way, even if it hurts like all hell and honors their stated wishes, even if it rips your own heart out.

Yes, I know. I agree. I have never obstructed or assisted her in the process of the divorce, all the times it has come up. I can not keep her. I don't want to keep her. I want to be near her because she wants to be near me. I want mutual affinity and affection. Not possession. Not a pet.

And I'm prepared to have my heart ripped out. I won't like it, but I will endure it.

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

Self-esteem draws the line at continuing to give one's all when that is becoming destructive to one's wellbeing. When you feel like you cannot live without her, then you have possibly become overinvested in her and unhealthily enmeshed. Often, when that happens, the person who has done so becomes controlling and obsessive over their partner (although I do not know if that is true in your marriage).

You may be on to something here, but I may not be in the best position to verify it. I am heavily invested in her. But I am most definitely my own person. The roles I fill describe me, but they are not me, just as no map is the terrain.

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

If someone really loves, honors and respects another, they will not continue to argue a point clearly stated, call against their wishes, write them, and/or invade their world without an express invitation.

If your wife went to the trouble to get an RO, then she obviously has issues with your form of contact with her. Is it not possible to step back and allow her the space that she apparently so desparately desires?

Another good observation.

It certainly is possible and respectful to permit that space she's seeking. But to clarify, she wanted security, not space, as defined in the restraining order. If you go back and read some of the earlier posts, there were many calls from her while I was still reeling from the shock of the RO. This is an example of the mixed messages I've described. Space. Ok. Security. Ok. Contact. Ok. She's calling the shots, not me.

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

Your relationship with your son is completely separate from the one with your wife. It is the one that you can affect at this point. Why not concentrate your energies on strengthening that relationship and doing what is necessary to preserve your spot in his life (visitation, contact arrangements, etc.)?

Another good point. Not quite a bullseye, though. There is no way to completely separate my relationship with my son from my relationship with my wife. Really. I can compartmentalize the two if necessary, but they overlap, they're not disjoint. You may rest assured that I will build the best strongest relationship possible with our son that I can manage, regardless of my relationship with my wife.

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

I do not believe that the greatest gift you can give your son is to love his mother, I believe the greatest gift you can give your son is to love him. Period. A steadfast, solid love that never waivers and is not dependant upon your relationship with his mother is much more important to a child than anything else. In fact, parent's relationships with each other should be kept totally OUT of their relationship with their children. Kids need to know that their mother and father love them even if/when the marriage breaks up and that they are not involved in that whatsoever.

I respectfully disagree. I have spoken at length elsewhere describing my thoughts on this aspect, and I will not repeat them here, since you've obviously read them and brought my own quote into your remarks. Our ideas overlap, but we do not share the same focus.

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

Get an attorney, make unshakeable visitation arrangements and let time heal the wounds. When emotions have cooled down and the shock has worn off, there will be plenty of time to analyse, dissect and discuss what happened. Sometimes there is no understanding possible, one must simply accept the situation and make the best of it.

Time and space will usually bring clarity.

You're right again. Thank you for your care and your effort to talk to me. I appreciate it.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by kgg

I get two impressions here. One is that they are talking and attempting, at times, to work things through. She has not called the cops yet and why would she because they can just say she allowed him to talk/see her. The other one is, Deuce is wantingto talk to her as well. So he in fact isn't too worried about the restraining order and must trust her somewhat in that she hasn't called him in. He knows her better than we.

Stop a minute. Correction. I am terrified of the potential downside of the restraining order. It is a MAJOR obstacle to our communication. I feel she ordered it to get some confidence that she would be protected physically, but had no idea what a communication block it represents. She said she was afraid what I would do when I got the news of the divorce. Those fears have proved to be completely unfounded.

Originally Posted by kgg

So Deuce, I ask you, do you really think she will call? I think that perhaps she is afraid due to something we do not know about but that she must still care enough to want to work through some things together with you in a friendly manner. Am I wrong? And one last thing, we don't know that she keeps calling him. He hasn't said that she is the one doing all the calling. It sounds like he is calling her too. Fess up man.

Yes, I think she will call. I think she will call if she gets the sense that her safety is at risk, or the safety of our son. I think you're right, she is afraid. But her fears are unfounded. The things she said she was worried might happen, never happened. I never became violent, I never took our son, I never stalked, threatened, harassed, approached, etc etc. Good grief.

Frankly she should call in those situations. But you don't need a restraining order to have that kind of protection. A restraining order doesn't make the cops get there any faster when you dial 911.

You mention care. I wish she cared. I wonder if she cares. If she does care, she's sending seriously mixed messages. I hope she cares. I care. I want to work things out too, and friendly is better.

I don't exactly follow you on what you want me to fess up about. Clarify please.

Originally Posted by DanaC

People lie. If the stakes are a better deal in the divorce and custody of children, then it has to be considered as a possibility. Even if it's unlikely, because the cost of calling that wrong are very fucking high if you're a Dad who wants access to his kids.

She could be lying, I don't know. I don't think so. I evaluate this continuously. When I feel endangered, I cease contact. I can't parent my son from jail. You're damn skippy the stakes are high. Nothing in my life has represented higher stakes than this. I am paying attention, you can bet the rent.

Originally Posted by DanaC

Of course Deuce wants to talk to her, he is in love with her and doesn't want the relationship to end. Newsflash, she clearly does.

Some clarifications. I do love her. Not exactly the same as in love, though.

The relationship will not end, whether or not I want it to. I know the relationship will continue, because we have a young child together, that binds us.

I absofreakinlutely guarantee that the relationship will change. We can not continue as we are. The conflict, the arguing. **NOT** sustainable, not endurable, not healthy. We will change. We may be together, married. We may be together as divorced parents of a young child whom we both love. We may be divorced parents of a child we love that have not found a way to manage their conflict constructively and consequently limit the exposure and opportunity for conflict to the barest minimum. There will be a change, the current situation will not continue. I promise.

Originally Posted by DanaC

Has anything Deuce said given you even the slightest indication that she wants to work through anything in a friendly manner?

Deuce, kgg is telling you what you want to hear. he is doing so in all genuine good intent I am sure. But...it's still what you want to hear, not what you need to hear. That's my opinion anyway.

That's actually a good question, I don't know. Have I?

[kgg]

Fess up meaning tell us that you call her. Is she really the one doing all the calling? If not, than lay off on that just a bit. That's all. Be truthful and honest. That's all. I'm glad you like some of the things I say.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by kgg

Fess up meaning tell us that you call her. Is she really the one doing all the calling? If not, than lay off on that just a bit. That's all. Be truthful and honest. That's all. I'm glad you like some of the things I say.

Um, ok. Yes, I have called her over the course of this process, a number of times. There are at least three or four posts that talk about our conversations, some of which I initiated over the phone.

(lay off on that? wtf?)

Man, I am truthful and honest. Have I given you any reason to believe otherwise?

And while we're at it, which of my posts were mean spirited?

And

Originally Posted by DanaC

Has anything Deuce said given you even the slightest indication that she wants to work through anything in a friendly manner?

What's your answer to this question too? Come on, fess up.