Bush invalidates Fifth Ammendment by Executive Order

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by BigV

Let me ask you some questions, UT. What the heck does this EO do?
...and now the penalty for that violence or risk of violence is seizure. I'm pretty sure we already had laws that prohibited violence in this country. Why this new one?

The entire point of this order is the part you originally bolded:

all property and interests in property of the following persons, that are in the United States, that hereafter come within the United States, or that are or hereafter come within the possession or control of United States persons, are blocked and may not be transferred, paid, exported, withdrawn, or otherwise dealt in

The idea, I'm sure, is to seize assets in the US that are intended for use in Iraq. The same kind of EO has been used for quite some time, for exactly that purpose. For example, Clinton did it during the Bosnian conflict in EO 12934.

http://www.archives.gov/federal-regi.../pdf/12934.pdf

Clinton had six such EOs to address Haiti. For example 12872:

I, WILLIAM J. CLINTON, President of the United States of America, hereby
order:
Section 1. Except to the extent provided in regulations, orders, directives,
or licenses, which may hereafter be issued pursuant to this order, and
notwithstanding the existence of any rights or obligations conferred or im-
posed by any international agreement or any contract entered into or any
license or permit granted before the effective date of this order, all property
and interests in property of persons:
(a) Who have contributed to the obstruction of the implementation of
the United Nations Security Council Resolutions 841 and 873, the Governors
Island Agreement of July 3, 1993, or the activities of the United Nations
Mission in Haiti;
(b) Who have perpetuated or contributed to the violence in Haiti; or
(c) Who have materially or financially supported any of the foregoing,
that are in the United States, that hereafter come within the United States,
or that are or hereafter come within the possession or control of United
States persons, including their overseas branches, are blocked.

(side: this is not just a "b-b-but clinton did it!" objection. I tried to find other examples but there is precious few resources on EOs.)

Back to Biggie:

Do you want to live in a country where you can be punished because you might do something? I don't.

By that rule of thumb, I believe the earth has left you homeless.

The law is the ugly, ugly place where the glorious ideal meets deep dark reality. Almost by definition, the law sucks as hard as reality sucks.

You know who's really seriously punished because they might do something? DUI. The drunk driver hasn't hurt anyone, you realize. S/he has only increased the likelihood that s/he will hurt someone. The drunk driver may be an excellent driver in fact; you'd trust Mario Andretti at .08 more than most drivers at 0.00. 999 out of 1000 drunk drivers will get home without incident. 100% of the DUIs who are stopped before hitting anything, have not hit anything or hurt anyone. And it's 99.99999% more likely you'll be arrested and prosecuted DUI than under this EO. You got a problem with DUI prosecution? Drunk drivers have been waiting for someone to lobby on their side.

I don't find this scenario much of a stretch. Let's say I'm a bad guy. I am guilty of violating this order. In the course of my planning, I posted on the cellar, setting up my evil plan. You are guilty by association. Everything you have is seized. Where is your due process now?

Oh, you missed it again! Maybe you didn't read my last message so carefully. My due process begins at the moment everything I have is seized. At that point, we begin the legal process in which my role is examined. Did I collude in the crime, and to what extent? What did I know and when did I know it? If you were actually planning a crime and I knew about it, this would have to be proven in a court of law.

I like my chances; rule #1 is Do not try to break the law using the Cellar.

Of course, well before the seizure, the feds involved would probably vet their information, because if they know there's no proof I colluded, taking my stuff will be a major waste of their time and probably a horrible political embarrassment.

Do we have a guarantee the system can't be used arbitrarily? No. There is no guarantee given in any civilized nation in the world. This is not due to the current administration. This is reality, in which we are imperfect animals.


The real problem with the administration is not that they put together an EO to try to stop people from transferring millions of dollars to Saudi Arabia and Syria and Iran to buy AK47s and shaped charges and night vision goggles. The real problem is that they have such a lack of leadership as to turn an ordinary EO into more fuel for the fire. Fighting the war in Iraq with no more than the same tools used to promote Democracy in Haiti, is now a full-fledged libertarian crisis for some folks. That's how divided we are. That's what it's come to. And maybe we had to, but goddamn, it sucks.