The un-American Activities Thread

[Griff]

I thought we could start a thread to assess the threat from within. Who really wants to destroy America?

My first nomination goes to the repentant Trotskyites, cynical warmongers, and other big government types of The New American Century.

This isn't your Daddy's Republican Party. His party believed that,
"No foreign policy can be justified except a policy devoted without reservation or diversion to the protection of the liberty of the American people, with war only as the last resort and only to preserve that liberty." Sen. Robert a Taft "Mr. Republican"

[Whit]

     Intersting people, I really like this bit off the front page of that link.

The Project for the New American Century is a non-profit educational organization dedicated to a few fundamental propositions: that American leadership is good both for America and for the world; that such leadership requires military strength, diplomatic energy and commitment to moral principle; and that too few political leaders today are making the case for global leadership.

     It's a good thing we have a powerful military to back up our "commitment to moral principle".

[Griff]

There is some fabulous material like "deter rise of new great-power competitor" from a page 2 chart of this document written in 2000.

We hear some talk about China but are we trying to deter the rise of the EU? The dollar is at a four year low verses the euro. If the dollar is to remain strong, don't we need to keep venting it into overseas pockets? What if the euro were to supplant the dollar? Almost makes you want to topple a certain despot with close ties to Western Europe...

[Whit]

     Of course we have to deter the growing power of the EU, how else can we lead the world? They have to look to us for everything otherwise they might make their own decisions.

     Sarcasm aside I bet it's comforting to be that fanatic, to be absolutly sure that everything you do is right. The idea hits me like a horde of tiny spiders running up my spine but hey, that's me. I'm sure they sleep the sleep of the just every night. Must be hard for them though, trying to make everyone else in the world see the light.

[elSicomoro]

I'm not overly worried about the EU yet. There are still too many differences among the member countries to make them a real threat. After all, look at the UK.

[Griff]

hmmm... Richard Eberling says follow the money.

[Undertoad]

Dude, if you go for the Euro vs Dollar idea, you are in effect covering up your Free Markets Believer cap with your Government Conspiracy cap.

To start you have to believe that there is a huge, secret reason why we angle for war that is NOT one of the huge obvious reasons OR one of the widely-discussed geopolitical reasons. One that is known only to a very small circle of people, since it's never been mentioned by anyone in the administration OR its opposition OR the Washington press corps OR the UN OR...

It would take an enormous effort to bring about war for a *secret* reason with 3 billion people trying to work out the reasons for war.

And the reason not to discuss it? If it's going to have serious repercussions, currency change would be a major point of discussion worldwide. If it's going to have a disastrous effect on the US, there is no reason not to discuss it as a reason for war.

Then you have to believe that we have no power as a trading partner.

Then you have to believe that nations all over the world will sell their dollars away, even if they are getting 60-70 cents for them.

Then you have to believe that the free marketplace is basically flawed in a way that means that the world CAN, in effect, bring about global economic warfare and cause a depression in our country - which means, in turn, that the libertarian tradition of complete isolationism is even more of a joke.

Just take the reason of mine that appeals to you the most. All this stuff isn't off the top of my head BTW... I saw this argument presented, saw you HINT towards it yesterday, and started thinking. So it's unfair... sorry.

But it's like that Brit dude that warch brought up; everyone is looking for double- and triple-secret special reasons. It occurred to me that that dude used his rationale to explain WW2, when he said the same economic conditions applied in the 30s. No, in WW2 the reason for war was fucking obvious, and it's almost as fucking obvious this time. No conspiracies, no weird factors that only you have figured out.

[Griff]

[discaimer]Griff is not to be confused with a real economist, he just calls 'em as he sees 'em[/disclaimer]
Dude, if you go for the Euro vs Dollar idea, you are in effect covering up your Free Markets Believer cap with your Government Conspiracy cap. I usually wear the conspiracy of the week t-shirt so I can leave my free markets for free people cap on.

To start you have to believe that there is a huge, secret reason why we angle for war that is NOT one of the huge obvious reasons OR one of the widely-discussed geopolitical reasons. One that is known only to a very small circle of people, since it's never been mentioned by anyone in the administration OR its opposition OR the Washington press corps OR the UN OR...

It would take an enormous effort to bring about war for a *secret* reason with 3 billion people trying to work out the reasons for war. I'm sorry, I missed the part of this that implied a secret. Economics doesn't sound bite well and make peoples eyes glaze over if you're looking for the reason its not discussed on tv.

And the reason not to discuss it? If it's going to have serious repercussions, currency change would be a major point of discussion worldwide. If it's going to have a disastrous effect on the US, there is no reason not to discuss it as a reason for war. ...unless the enemy is officially a friend.

Then you have to believe that we have no power as a trading partner. No, I'd have to believe that a core group of the Presidents advisors believe we don't have enough power as a trading partner.

Then you have to believe that nations all over the world will sell their dollars away, even if they are getting 60-70 cents for them. I'd have to believe that folks using dollars overseas would act in their self interest if they believed the dollar was sinking and the euro was rising.

Then you have to believe that the free marketplace is basically flawed in a way that means that the world CAN, in effect, bring about global economic warfare and cause a depression in our country - which means, in turn, that the libertarian tradition of complete isolationism is even more of a joke. Sure, the marketplace is flawed, because our currency is flawed. Our currency will be further debased to pay for the administrations militaristic foreign policy.


But it's like that Brit dude that warch brought up; everyone is looking for double- and triple-secret special reasons. It occurred to me that that dude used his rationale to explain WW2, when he said the same economic conditions applied in the 30s. No, in WW2 the reason for war was fucking obvious, and it's almost as fucking obvious this time. No conspiracies, no weird factors that only you have figured out. The reasons given for this war are apparently considered absurd by most of the world and as it happens by myself. Therefor, I look for more likely causes. Oil and money seem pretty valid. An admitted vision of Pax Americana by some top officials in this administration also seems valid.

[Undertoad]

That's a fair point about the currency, but what the hell is the Euro anyway? The power of the marketplace is that it (usually/eventually) gets over these kinds of artificial constuctions.

uninformed speculation follows

In the long run I have no doubt that the US will outgrow Europe, no matter what Europe does. At their heart, they are risk-averse bureaucrats and S*c**lists. Recent EU regulators said that all pig farmers have to supply their pigs with play toys. You and I laugh riotously... even the US D of Ag doesn't create such nonsense and would never ever even think of trying. EU regulators seek to cut themselves off from the rest of the world...

Seriously, there will not be a time when we send $25 (or whatever) to Saudi Arabia and they do not send back a barrel of light sweet crude. If they want to refuse our dollars it will be to their peril. Someone else will want them, if not another oil seller, another seller of something else who will also want to use those dollars to buy oil.

Oil drives the economy to some degree, but there are all kinds of weird factors built in to the price. F'rinstance, I had no idea -- it turns out that the real reason why we are "dependent" on foreign oil is because it is cheap. When it becomes expensive, it becomes more economically viable to pump oil out of Texas and the Gulf of Mexico. Also, turns out the oil under the mideast is higher quality, easier to refine and easier to dig for. (It's under SAND.)

So if they don't take our dollars in the mideast, and the price of oil jumps for us, it means we go retrieve our own stuff. But is the supply limited? I've heard from two vastly different sources that some domestic oil wells are REFILLING - WTF?? - and that the Gulf oil reserve might be simply gigantic but that we don't look for it because right now it's cheaper just to pay the Sauds for theirs.

(BTW funfact - if you don't want to buy gas refined from mideast oil, buy Sunoco.)

[Griff]

Somebody gave a sheet to my Mom promoting that no arab oil thing. I assumed it was bull. Do you have a source?.. grumble I may have to apologize to Mom...

btw I think you are right about the euro.

[perth]

snopes to the rescue!

~james

[Undertoad]

So, Sunoco.

Except that, as the Snopes page noted, by the time it gets to the retailer it pretty much doesn't matter...

[russotto]

Iraq switched to taking euros rather than dollars as a (successful) attempt to curry favor with the Europeans and as a way of thumbing its nose at America. I doubt it represents any sort of trend.

Even if all of Middle Eastern OPEC switched to the Euro, there's no way South American OPEC would; dollars are a LOT more important to Mexico and Venezuala than euros.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Undertoad
but what the hell is the Euro anyway?

The relatively new currency used by most EU countries (The United Kingdom is a notable exception). Originally used through electronic transactions only, it became a paper currency in 2002. When created, the Euro's value was tied to the former German mark, generally considered one of the world's strongest currencies.

You're welcome.

[wolf]

Uh, Syc, I think he was just making fun of the Euro. I seem to recall reading that there is a thriving underground economy still trading in the old currencies of Europe.

There were a couple articles that ran a few months back about countries rethinking the EU concept, also. I'll have to see if I can hunt any of them up.