Do You Own a Gun?

[Happy Monkey]

How would the car companies do that?

[Ibby]

"Now before we can sell you this SUV, we need to see if you can drive it, please come this way..."

[Aliantha]

And if all car companies did this, it'd be great, but what standards would they set? Would they all adhere to the same rules? Would some companies exclude certain people and allow others?

Hmmmm...sounds like things like this need to be regulated.

Let's bring in the government, for the good of the people.

[Ibby]

Hey, whoa, fuck you and your stupid 'reality' bullshit.

I'm talking ideals here. The world will never, ever conform to my ideals - but y'can't blame a guy for trying.

[Aliantha]

stupid reality bullshit?

c'mon Ibram, reality is what it is. All the ideals in the world aren't going to solve problems, although nice to have.

In an ideal world, no one would need to be regulated for anything because all our knowledge about right and wrong would be intrinsic. Unfortunately, human beings decided they wanted to live like...well...humans beings instead of animals.

The problem is, not everyone got the memo.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

You still haven't proven natural rights. You just kept telling me that I have them and I am an idiot. (I feel like I am repeating myself)

Yes I have; many times over. You just keep denying it because you don't like the truth.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

One, I would like to see you back that up because almost everyone I've talked too agrees with me.

None of them are on this board that I've seen, and if there are any they most likely aren't the brightest bulbs on the tree.....much like you.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Two, even if you were right about that stastic (you're not), it doesn't mean anything. 2,000 years ago you could say 99.9999% of the people believed that the Earth was the center of the universe and we know just how right they were.

My statistic was right now, was right at the dawn of creation, and will be right until the end of the universe.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

You do not violate gravity by getting in a rocket ship, gravity just has as much effect on you when you are moving away from Earth as you do when you are falling from a ten story building. Using that logic I can say that I break the law of gravity by jumping. I dare you to go up to a physicist and say that. I dare you.

Yes, you do violate gravity by going against it. Gravity pushes toward the center of the earth, and you are going away from it. You violate gravity when you jump, when you get into a rocket ship and escape from the gravitational pull of our planet, etc.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

You can only violate gravity by making it disappear, which is impossible.

It's no more impossible to make gravity disappear than it is to make natural rights disappear.


I can say I have the natural right to own slaves and use the same arguments as you and we would be at the same place.[/quote]

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by Radar

It's not a matter of what we "perceive" to be our rights. Our rights can't be listed because the list would be near infinite in length. You have the right to chew gum (if you've obtained the gun honestly), you have the right to walk back and forth across your own property, you have the right to do jumping jacks on your own property, etc.

We have the right to do ANYTHING we want as long as our actions don't PHYSICALLY harm, endanger, or violate the person, property, or rights of non-consenting others.

We don't have the right to physically harm, endanger, or violate the person, property, or rights of non-consenting others.

Philosophers have argued the case for and against natural rights throughout the ages.

I don't see how you can be so sure you know exactly what the answer is when men with far more intellect than you've shown can't come up with a feasible answer.

Hence my use of the word 'perceive'. Obviously it depends on what your own idea is, particularly as the subject is philosophical and not factual.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Radar

Yes I have; many times over. You just keep denying it because you don't like the truth.

Then what are they? Because I keep missing your proof.

None of them are on this board that I've seen, and if there are any they most likely aren't the brightest bulbs on the tree.....much like you.

Obviously not on this board and you are criticizing people you do not even know. Way to be ignorant and close-minded. *high five*

My statistic was right now, was right at the dawn of creation, and will be right until the end of the universe.

I can pull stats out of my ass too. Doesn't make them right.

Yes, you do violate gravity by going against it. Gravity pushes toward the center of the earth, and you are going away from it. You violate gravity when you jump, when you get into a rocket ship and escape from the gravitational pull of our planet, etc.

I have a feeling you don't have a degree in physics do you? Gravity is an acceleration that is directed towards the center of the Earth. When you jump you produce a force that will accelerate you away from the Earth. While you are moving away gravity always has an effect on you, which is why you slow down, stop, then come back down towards Earth. If you broke free of gravity then you would just fly off into space.

The way a rocket ship works is that it produces an acceleration that goes in the opposite direction of gravity's acceleration. These two accelerations will always be in battle with each other and to get into orbit you have beat out gravity's acceleration with your own. Once you get into orbit, gravity is still affecting you (that is why you orbit), just that you are moving fast enough tangent to the Earth that you can stay in orbit.

It's no more impossible to make gravity disappear than it is to make natural rights disappear.

It is not about making them disappear, it is about breaking them. You can break any one of your rights. You can not break the rule of gravity because you can not make gravity not effect you.

I can say I have the natural right to own slaves and use the same arguments as you and we would be at the same place.

What? Did you just not delete this or what?

[Aliantha]

There are a few people who I'd like to see 'break free of gravity' and 'fly off into space'.

[lumberjim]

pierce, babe.....and i say babe cuz yer like 12....


life is a natural right. you have the right to be alive. not because the government or the neighbors say so, but because you JUST DO.

is that simple enough for you to get wrapped around?

[piercehawkeye45]

We only have that right because we say we do. Do other animals have this right?

In nature we see other animals killing other animals for food. This is natural. We live in a world of birth and death.

It is our pride as humans, and I'm included in this, to say that we specifically have a right to live. So we say we have a right to live. I do not disagree with this right because I want to live but you have to realize that it is humans that made this right not nature.

Nature does not care about humans anymore than it cares about a cow. We are not anymore special then them. To protect ourselves from ourselves and other animals, we created a right to live.

I agree with us having this right it is just I do not think it is a natural law.

[lumberjim]

not a natural law, no. but was that ever the argument?

all animals have the right to life. and when one animal is eaten by another, it's rights are being violated.

the point is that government is created by man to limit. it is a construct. go back in time to the first people walking around.....before there was a government. the natural rights of those people were uninhibited completely. the could do what they wanted. as radar said, limitless, infinite. it is only because we have such a complexity of realities inter-meshing that we need a government to hold it all together and prevent the chaos that unlimited rights would cause.

radar is an idealist. he's absolutely right about natural rights... I believe that the spirit of the constitution tells us that those rights are the most important element of our government. the role of our government is first to protect our rights. unfortunately, the actual real world truth is ...that this is not the America our founding fathers intended.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

all animals have the right to life. and when one animal is eaten by another, it's rights are being violated.

I just don't see the relevance when every animal has the right to live when we have to kill thousands of organisms to breathe or have to kill another animal to survive. If I don't kill the deer, my children will starve to death, violating their rights. If I kill the deer, I violate it's right. It is always a lose-lose situation.

The way nature works is if I protect my right to live, I will have to deprive another animal of its right to live.

From looking at nature from this perspective there is no evidence that nature will enforce any right of life to any animal seeing that we need to kill to live.

The only way to break free for this reality is too say humans are better than other animals which has no proof in nature as well. A tornado will kill a human just as quickly as it will kill a dog.

[lumberjim]

all run on sentences, unclear and wandering points, and bizzarre analogies and no play make piercehawkeye go crazy.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

pierce, babe.....and i say babe cuz yer like 12....


life is a natural right. you have the right to be alive. not because the government or the neighbors say so, but because you JUST DO.

is that simple enough for you to get wrapped around?

He's only a kid? Well it's all starting to make sense now. Kids always think they know everything and they don't know shit. He's only 19. He hasn't even started to learn about life yet.