Sanctuary

[Aliantha]

Wouldn't it be a reasonable assumption to say that people that do enter countries illegally are by definition more desperate simply by demonstrating that they can't wait to go through the legal chanels?

[jinx]

Uh... no. No, I don't think it would.

[Aliantha]

Maybe it depends what your definition of desperate is.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by jinx

Do you think this is relevant in some way or are you just trying to take a shot at the other team?

I am just saying that it is impossible to give a cost estimate of these because they are on-going, we have no idea what and how much of whatever is out there, and the cost rises dramatically with how much effort you put into it.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Well hell, every other project, public and private, has an estimate before it starts. How can you budget/finance without that?
I refuse to believe they can't estimate the cost, even if they are wrong.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Maybe it depends what your definition of desperate is.

It could be, but I'm having a hard time believing that mexico is the most desperate place on earth, and that's where the majority of our illegal immigrants come from.

[Aliantha]

Yeah I guess that's true. I guess I"m looking at the kinds of illegal immigrants we get here, and I'd say that as a rule, their level of desperation is pretty well up there with the best of them. Most of them apply for visas with refugee status but not all are approved. I believe many are though.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by jinx

Are the ones who get in (illegally) more desperate than everyone else, or is it just more convenient/easier for them to sneak in? Some desperate people have entire oceans in their way...

I think it's safe to assume that the people who risk life and limb to get here illegally, are extremely desperate. In those cases, I don't think convenient or easy factor in.

Originally Posted by jinx

It could be, but I'm having a hard time believing that mexico is the most desperate place on earth, and that's where the majority of our illegal immigrants come from.

A lot of illegal immigrants actually come through Mexico (if they can make it through, that is) from further points south. Although there are Mexicans who contend with very desperate conditions.

[jinx]

Mexico is the country of origin for 54% of illegal immigrants. 80% are from the western Hemisphere.

My point is, I don't think mexicans, canadians or peruvians have more of a right to be US citizens, just because its easier for them to sneak in, than people on the other side of the globe. I don't think "they're already here" is a good reason to let them stay.

[xoxoxoBruce]

The only reason they risk life and limb to get here is they are too lazy to fix their own country. It's easier to come here than put a stop to the corruption and mismanagement at home, that strangles their economy and keeps them poor. Where the hell is all the money from Mexico's oil fields? That sure didn't get spread around, but did they do anything about it? No, they came here instead.

[Aliantha]

Why didn't the Iraqis fix their own problem instead of allowing the US and friends to depose the dictator?

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Why didn't the Iraqis fix their own problem instead of allowing the US and friends to depose the dictator?

Allowing? I don't think anyone gave them the choice...

[Aliantha]

I was trying to be polite

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by jinx

Mexico is the country of origin for 54% of illegal immigrants. 80% are from the western Hemisphere.

The info seems to be a little old...1996? I wonder if the estimated percentages still apply.

[BigV]

I'll bite.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

--snip--

2-Make them take their spawn with them unless they can provide a trust fund to provide for them until they are 18.

--snip--
Yes, I am as serious as a heart attack.

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

--snip--
Regarding "spawn"--whether you like it or not, those who are born here, are citizens. Anyone who has a problem with that is welcome to go back to their ancestors' country of origin.

--snip.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

--snip--

Yes, according to the supreme court they [the spawn, Ed.] are. BUT, they are not obliged to stay here, so this bullshit about wrenching children from their parents is complete bullshit.--snip.

Wrong. Not SCOTUS, the Constitution we both revere. *Obligated* to stay here? Who is? You? Me? Only as much as the other citizens. Equally.

Originally Posted by The Constitution of the United States of America

Amendment XIV (1868)
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
[Extracted from The Constitution of the United States of America (May 2006), The Constitution of the United States of America.]

Not too long ago, you were part of this conversation:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce and Aliantha

xoB: Why it was written is a moot point. Only what it says counts.

Ali: Do you really believe that?

xoB: Fuckin A right I do... about the entire Constitution. It's the foundation of our country and our way of life.

Ali: So you don't care why it was written, just that it was?

xoB: Because it doesn't matter. All history of this continent prior to the Constitution being written, is just that, history. It could be lost forever and it would have no effect on us...it wouldn't change the Constitution.

Ali: It's because of history that your world is as it is today, so in my opinion, it's very relevant. Incidents and actions prior to your constitution being written certainly would have contributed to its contents.

I'm just really surprised that you hold such a view Bruce.

xoB: Sure they did, but that's just interesting history. It doesn't change what was written, and that's what we live by.

Unless you're a citizen spawn. How can you square this circle, xoB? Only care for the convenient parts of the Constitution? That is unlike you. I agree our nation has a problem with illegal immigration. We probably don't agree on the severity of that problem, and, based on this recent thread, we damn sure don't agree about which citizens are entitled to Life, Liberty and the Purfuit of Happineff, and which are not.