Split from Cloud's Kids&Internet Thread

[Beestie]

The horrific mistake that Merc is making is confusing control for instruction.

Kids who are controlled like automatons never learn how to exercise good judgement. Their first day in college, they will not know how to handle all the evils available to them because they have never had to make a decision in their entire life - all their decisions were pre-empted by Stalinist-level control.

You can't teach a child how to choose good over bad if they are raised in a hermetically sealed bubble.

All that Merc is accomplishing is deferring their exploratory years to when their actions are no longer Merc's problem. Basically, a philosophy of "screw up all you want just wait till you move out to do it."

That is nothing short of an abdication of parental responsibility.

Its really not that different than not teaching your child how to drive. You have to teach them then you have to give him (or her - this isn't a gender issue) the keys now and then and not let them see you pray to God that they come back in once piece.

If you don't show a child some trust, then don't expect any back.

I'm with Ibram on this one.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Beestie

The horrific mistake that Merc is making is confusing control for instruction.

Kids who are controlled like automatons never learn how to exercise good judgement. Their first day in college, they will not know how to handle all the evils available to them because they have never had to make a decision in their entire life - all their decisions were pre-empted by Stalinist-level control.

You can't teach a child how to choose good over bad if they are raised in a hermetically sealed bubble.

All that Merc is accomplishing is deferring their exploratory years to when their actions are no longer Merc's problem. Basically, a philosophy of "screw up all you want just wait till you move out to do it."

That is nothing short of an abdication of parental responsibility.

Its really not that different than not teaching your child how to drive and giving him the keys now and then and not letting them see you pray to God that they come back in once piece.

If you don't show a child some trust, then don't expect any back.

I'm with Ibram on this one.

Woooowooo my friend... There are no statement of abdication or control for that matter, only monitoring and appropriate intervention when and if things appear to be getting out of hand.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Woooowooo my friend... There are no statement of abdication or control for that matter, only monitoring and appropriate intervention when and if things appear to be getting out of hand.

Abdication might be too strong a word but the point I am making is that you can't expect a kid to develop the self discipline to choose not to visit unsavory content if you screen it all out.

What is he going to do when he's 19, out on his own with his own computer and no daddy sitting on his head clubbing him each time he strays to the dark corner of the internet - or strip clubs - or whatever.

What are you teaching when you demonstrate zero trust in your kids?

And I'd be willing to bet $50.00 that your kids have probably figured out how to tunnel through your Great Wall of Purity. For every safeguard, there is a hack. Keyloggers, screen cap software, site monitoring software - all of it can be hacked. Wouldn't surprise me a bit if they got the software while at their friend's house (oops - security breach) and installed it on your home machine. Don't bother looking for it - it won't show up in task manager.

Distrust breeds subversion.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Beestie

Abdication might be too strong a word but the point I am making is that you can't expect a kid to develop the self discipline to choose not to visit unsavory content if you screen it all out.

What is he going to do when he's 19, out on his own with his own computer and no daddy sitting on his head clubbing him each time he strays to the dark corner of the internet - or strip clubs - or whatever.

What are you teaching when you demonstrate zero trust in your kids?

And I'd be willing to bet $50.00 that your kids have probably figured out how to tunnel through your Great Wall of Purity. For every safeguard, there is a hack. Keyloggers, screen cap software, site monitoring software - all of it can be hacked. Wouldn't surprise me a bit if they got the software while at their friend's house (oops - security breach) and installed it on your home machine. Don't bother looking for it - it won't show up in task manager.

Distrust breeds subversion.

Never said I ever screened it all out. Only that parents should know what is going on when their teens are on the web. I have never clubbed any of my kids. Although I wanted to once or twice.

My older kids are already out there doing what ever they do, that is their responsibility now. They will be responsible for their own actions.

I know computers much better than my kids so I doubt any of the later will happen.

But we digress from the topic.

Do parents have a right to know what their kids are doing on the net when such access is only available in their homes???

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Do parents have a right to know what their kids are doing on the net when such access is only available in their homes???

Of course they do. And an obligation to stay involved. My only point is that you gotta give them some room to take responsibility with a parental safety net. Several people from around the planet and from both ends of the political spectrum are in near perfect agreement that you gotta let kids screw up so you can show them how not to and how to own up to it.

I suppose you are going to tell me that you didn't keep a few copies of JUGGS under you bed when you were growing up. Or did your father conduct random, warrentless searches to ferret out such tools of the devil.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Beestie

Of course they do. And an obligation to stay involved. My only point is that you gotta give them some room to take responsibility with a parental safety net. Several people from around the planet and from both ends of the political spectrum are in near perfect agreement that you gotta let kids screw up so you can show them how not to and how to own up to it.

I suppose you are going to tell me that you didn't keep a few copies of JUGGS under you bed when you were growing up. Or did your father conduct random, warrentless searches to ferret out such tools of the devil.

That is really not the issue, the issues is am I a "Mother-Fucking -Asshole" for wanting to keep my kids safe in my house under my rules by using parental spy-ware? Sorry dude, if you are not a parent you have no idea what a "warrentless search" is of a childs room, give me a frigging break.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Beestie

Of course they do. And an obligation to stay involved. My only point is that you gotta give them some room to take responsibility with a parental safety net. Several people from around the planet and from both ends of the political spectrum are in near perfect agreement that you gotta let kids screw up so you can show them how not to and how to own up to it.

I suppose you are going to tell me that you didn't keep a few copies of JUGGS under you bed when you were growing up. Or did your father conduct random, warrentless searches to ferret out such tools of the devil.

Check this out:

http://www.crisisconnectioninc.org/s..._predators.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9878187/

http://safety.com/articles/internet-predators.html

http://www.pcsndreams.com/Pages/News...ves/000115.htm

Lauren Kerr Thomas knew the right words to woo a 15-year-old girl he met in an Internet chat room.
"He was going to be the answer and cure for a 15-year-old's problems," said Riverside police Sgt. J.E. Trego.

Instead, Thomas added problems no 15-year-old should have to face.

He is accused of repeatedly having sex with the girl in hotels in Fairborn and Riverside and at his home in Kinsmon in Trumbull County. He already has been convicted of unlawful sexual conduct charges involving the girl in Montgomery County.

Now he faces kidnapping, rape and unlawful sexual conduct counts in Greene County Common Pleas Court early next year on the Fairborn accusation, and in a Trumbull County court in March or April.
Investigators say Thomas, 45, is a typical Internet sex "traveler" who preys on children met via the Internet.

These predators pull out the stops to impress their young, smitten prey, FBI Special Agent Barry Maddox said. Maddox is spokesman for the Baltimore field office, the base of the bureau's Innocent Images National Initiative, whose aims includes identifying, investigating and prosecuting Internet sexual predators.

Thomas' attorney Richard Reiling did not return calls for comment.
Fresh flower pedals were found on the bed in a hotel room one predator planned to use for a romantic evening with who he thought was a 13-year-old girl, Maddox said. The reality: the 13-year-old was an FBI agent. Other predators have bought lingerie in hopes their adolescent victims would model for them, Maddox said.

In Thomas' case, he told the girl he loved her and promised her a car, an apartment and a new life in Canada, police reports said. He showered her with gifts - an ankle bracelet, toe and finger rings, a hooded sweater, marijuana, spiked heels and lingerie.
"It's taboo. (Adolescents) want to try it. They think they can handle it," said Xenia police Detective Alonzo Wilson. "They think they love these guys. Once these guys get them hooked, it's hard to stop them."
Wilson is member of Xenia's Internet Child Protection Unit, which since 2000 has netted about 55 people accused of being Internet predators.

One Miami Valley girl said she was drawn by the mystique of a relationship with an older guy.
"Nicole" was a vulnerable, plump, friendless 12-year-old outcast when MBEALER1 began instant messaging her in an online game room in 1998. He said his name was Michael Bealer and he was 19 and from Oklahoma. Nicole, whose real name is not being used, was intrigued.
"He said all of the cool things. . . . I was just glad someone was paying me some attention," said Nicole, now 17. "Most little girls will take attention any way they can get it."

Over the next days, the conversation became sexual and cybersex began. Eventually, MBEALER1 asked Nicole to move to Quapaw, Okla., and to send him sexy photos and letters, authorities said.
"He built up to it," Nicole recalled. "He started asking questions. You can tell by the responses (how far someone will go)."

The relationship ended when Nicole's parents read an explicit letter she planned to mail to Michael Bealer, really Christopher M. Huston. They called Fairborn police.

It turned out the cool guy with the self-described long, red hair and hazel eyes lived in an efficiency apartment with his parents. Huston was convicted in Oklahoma of two counts of making indecent proposals to a minor and sentenced to a seven years in prison. Nicole's mother, "Karen", said she understands why her daughter was attracted.

"She had been lonely. She had it rough with kids picking on her all the time. I think those jerks just look for cracks," Karen said.

The mother of three didn't think her child could be victimized and had told her of Internet dangers. "I was really surprise that would happen in my house. I thought I would be on top of it," she said.

Joy Ott, a child psychologist at Children's Medical Center, said adolescents are particularly susceptible to the abuse because they are sexually curious, rebellious and feel they are invincible.

"Teenagers are always looking for someone that they feel understands them," she said. " (The predator) says, 'You're right. Your parents don't understand you. I understand you.' "

Some Internet predators live in a fantasy world, said Katya Gifford, a program director for Cyberangels.org, the Guardian Angels' online safety, education and help site.


The Internet provides some the arena to fulfill illicit desires, she said.

"It takes people faster into that fantasy and eventually, that fantasy takes them off line," she said. "(The predator) never would have acted on it in his own little town where everyone knows everybody."

For Thomas' 15-year-old victim, the face-to-face meeting turned into sex at a local hotel within walking distance of her high school, police said. For that, Thomas was convicted in Montgomery County on three counts each of corrupting another with drugs and unlawful sexual conduct with a minor. Thomas is in the Correctional Reception Center in Orient on the Montgomery County convictions.

He now faces trials on 31 counts of unlawful sexual conduct with a minor, three counts of rape and one
kidnapping charge in connection with meetings with the girl in Fairborn and Trumbull County.

Shortly after reporting her missing April 4, the 15-year-old's parents searched her school locker and found notes with information about Thomas, who was charged in 1998 with gross sexual imposition in Trumbull County.

Trumbull County sheriff deputies found notes on 145 Internet screen names with users' physical descriptions and contact information in Thomas' home, according to Riverside police reports. Officials also found letters from other underage girls and evidence that Thomas traveled to South Carolina to have sex with a teenage girl there, according to police.

[From the Dayton Daily News: 11.03.2003]

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Check this out:
Lauren Kerr Thomas knew the right words to woo a 15-year-old girl he met in an Internet chat room.

My daughter is six years old. She already knows that there are people on the internet that want to take her away from us. Because her mother and father have told her so (in appropriately couched language). My seven year old son not only knows better than to fill out personal info (all the kids sites want their address and birthday - but they are clever - they ask for the month and day in one place then their age in another so as to piece it together) but he knows why they want it and how they use it to his disadvantage. We have (hopefully) instilled a desire to withhold that information rather than simply preventing him from providing it.

Its a lot harder the way we do it. Sometimes I have to restrain myself when I see my son follow the links and end up on a video game site with games that I think are excessively violent and desensitizing. But rather than freak like he just found the Playboy channel in the middle of Debbie Does Dallas, I watch him play for a minute then give him some reasons to decide for himself that the game he is playing is not a wise use of his internet time.

I want my kids to learn how to make decisions. That's going to involve them making lots of mistakes. Hopefully, when Daddy is no longer around, they will remember what they have learned.