Failed procedures = friendly fire = loss of life - Page 3

xoxoxoBruce · 03-17-2007, 01:49 PM

The Queens son is.

Besides tw's drugs, adrenaline pumped into the bloodstream in anticipation of combat has a powerful effect on, whom today they're calling, "War Fighters".

Cyclefrance · 03-17-2007, 07:38 PM

Still, bad enough that our troops have inadequate combat gear and personnel carriers that aren't equipped to withstand land mine explosions, without having friendly fire incidents as well - thank god those are much less frequent (well, as far as we know they are). And still unacceptable that an event such as the T10 one here fails to generate any learning or change in combat procedures.

End of story it seems, judging by the press reports.

TheMercenary · 03-20-2007, 10:39 PM

Shit happens. I feel very sorry for the soldiers on the ground who were hit. I feel more sorry for the families left behind. Hopefully their military will take care of them. But good God you fucks stop making this out to be something it is not. This is the Fog of War, sucks big donkey dick, but shit happens. Hopefully everyone learned from this. Someone please post how many years ago this happened? Someone please post how some fucking idiot on here is going to turn this into another Bush bashing opportunity? Give me a frigging break...

tw · 03-21-2007, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Shit happens. I feel very sorry for the soldiers on the ground who were hit. I feel more sorry for the families left behind. Hopefully their military will take care of them. But good God you fucks stop making this out to be something it is not. This is the Fog of War, ...

Which justifies intentional coverup and lies? Yes, shit happens. And then we admit to the 'shit' so that it does not happen again. Why does 'shit keep happening'? When those in power are too busy denying it even happened or why it happened. This would be a zero topic had the US been honest with the victims.

When does a 'blue on blue' event get reported? When symptoms of a coverup appear. It's not the 'blue on blue' event that is the newsworthy. The coverup - denial of basic facts for years - that is the scandel.

Illiinois F-16s killed some Canadians in Afghanistan. Same story. It was not the event that made news. Missing (therefore major news) was the candid admission. Also worthy of mention - drug use that result in increased deadly mental errors during 'stress'.

How many of the 'blue on blue' events got reported. Almost none because most were not newsworthy. This is reeked of a coverup. That is news.

TheMercenary · 03-21-2007, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw

Which justifies intentional coverup and lies? Yes, shit happens. And then we admit to the 'shit' so that it does not happen again. Why does 'shit keep happening'? When those in power are too busy denying it even happened or why it happened. This would be a zero topic had the US been honest with the victims.

When does a 'blue on blue' event get reported? When symptoms of a coverup appear. It's not the 'blue on blue' event that is the newsworthy. The coverup - denial of basic facts for years - that is the scandel.

Illiinois F-16s killed some Canadians in Afghanistan. Same story. It was not the event that made news. Missing (therefore major news) was the candid admission. Also worthy of mention - drug use that result in increased deadly mental errors during 'stress'.

How many of the 'blue on blue' events got reported. Almost none because most were not newsworthy. This is reeked of a coverup. That is news.

Drug use??? please post what first hand info you have about this. You know for a fact that "drug use" was involved? Or are you just repeating some spin from a anti-government website?

Sure any cover-up is bad. Give you that one.

Why does it keep happening? because there are bullets still flying about. As long as lead is heading down range people are going to get hurt, enemy and friendly alike.

JerryM · 03-26-2007, 08:26 PM

"Friendly Fire, isn't" has become an old saw and one used to disguise a multitude of human failings. Now called incidents, they were, and are, the direct result of the growth of weapons technology and human inability or willingness to control them. All martial conflicts are evolutionary processes where coordination and cooperation evolve from the result of disaster.
The August 11, 1966, "Friendly Fire" expended on the United States Coast Guard Cutter Point Welcome (WPB 82329) was one evolutionary link that forced a small measure operational union during the Vietnam War.

the whole story:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill...Welcome2.html#

This was the worst casualty inflicted upon the USCG during Vietnam. As someone else said, shit happens. The best we can hope for is to learn something to reduce the frequency of these "incidents". We usually gain some information to help prevent the same situation from recurring. Unfortunately, each situation has its own unique causes, and it is doubtful that we will ever have total eradication of "friendly fire " incidents.

The Coast Guard went through a period of TQM which very nearly ruined it. We are, usually, our own worst enemy, and a military service cannot be run by committee.

I also would like to see any REAL evidence of ANY military members being provided with "stimulants to stay sharp during combat flights". That sounds like a bit of information generated by the 4F boys at Joe's Bar and Grill around closing time.

CWO4 Jerry Murdock, USCG (RET)

Jerry

TheMercenary · 03-27-2007, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw

There remains this gorilla in the room that no one wants to talk about. Pilots are provided with stimulants to stay sharp during combat flights. These drugs have a nasty habit of modifying the thought process; can make a pilot 'trigger-happy'.

You have no proof of that assertion.

tw · 03-27-2007, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

You have no proof of that assertion.

Drug use was cited as contributing to an American attack on Canadians in Afghanistan. It was also issues to peers in Nam. If help keep pilots attentive, but has a nasty side effect of distorting the decision making process. If TheMercenary learned before having politial agendas, then he would know this stuff.

TheMercenary · 03-27-2007, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw

Drug use was cited as contributing to an American attack on Canadians in Afghanistan.

Sorry mate, that ain't proof. Original source citations please. Otherwise your are basically full of crap.

desert rat · 10-30-2007, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronald Cherrycoke

Human habit of repeating previous errors - the knowldge that could prevent this all too often dies with the relevant generation.

In some professions there will always be a chance of an accident regardless of safeguards...the military happens to be one.

- the individual who fired on the British vehicle has advanced through the ranks since the incident - it was reported on BBC news last night that he is now a colonel - The Sun newspaper today names Col Gus Kohntopp as the pilot who fired the shots.

So what... if it was an accident and he was not to blame or court marshaled...why shouldn`t he be promoted. If you don`t get promoted in the military you might as well leave.

DanaC · 10-30-2007, 05:44 PM

Well hello Desert Rat. Welcome to the Cellar.

desert rat · 10-30-2007, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Shit happens. I feel very sorry for the soldiers on the ground who were hit. I feel more sorry for the families left behind. Hopefully their military will take care of them. But good God you fucks stop making this out to be something it is not. This is the Fog of War, sucks big donkey dick, but shit happens. Hopefully everyone learned from this. Someone please post how many years ago this happened? Someone please post how some fucking idiot on here is going to turn this into another Bush bashing opportunity? Give me a frigging break...

fog of war,my arse! are you living in some american war movie?be professional ,accurate ,defeat ,be safe,and go home this is the future .behave mercenary ,you have a bad hero attitude.those pilots had a deadly tool in their hands and used it like novices.i hate the way that its prosumed that if you are a soldier and die its ok ,its your job.and its sucks big donkey...style...bullshit.the men in those a10s were immature kids.

desert rat · 10-30-2007, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by desert rat

fog of war,my arse! are you living in some american war movie?be professional ,accurate ,defeat ,be safe,and go home this is the future .behave mercenary ,you have a bad hero attitude.those pilots had a deadly tool in their hands and used it like novices.i hate the way that its prosumed that if you are a soldier and die its ok ,its your job.and its sucks big donkey...style...bullshit.the men in those a10s were immature kids.

whove been covered and hidden away,promoted and moved on.without an an apology.to the families of who you call limeys and look down upon .

lookout123 · 10-30-2007, 06:08 PM

say again? this time in engrish.

TheMercenary · 10-30-2007, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by desert rat

the men in those a10s were immature kids.

Ummmm... that would be bullshit.

03-17-2007, 01:49 PM	#31
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	The Queens son is. Besides tw's drugs, adrenaline pumped into the bloodstream in anticipation of combat has a powerful effect on, whom today they're calling, "War Fighters". __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

03-17-2007, 07:38 PM	#32
Cyclefrance Pump my ride! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Deep countryside of Surrey , England Posts: 1,890	Still, bad enough that our troops have inadequate combat gear and personnel carriers that aren't equipped to withstand land mine explosions, without having friendly fire incidents as well - thank god those are much less frequent (well, as far as we know they are). And still unacceptable that an event such as the T10 one here fails to generate any learning or change in combat procedures. End of story it seems, judging by the press reports. __________________ Always sufficient hills - never sufficient gears

03-26-2007, 08:26 PM	#36
JerryM Writer of Writings Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Onalaska, Texas Posts: 14	. . . USAF vs USCG . . . Vietnam "Friendly Fire, isn't" has become an old saw and one used to disguise a multitude of human failings. Now called incidents, they were, and are, the direct result of the growth of weapons technology and human inability or willingness to control them. All martial conflicts are evolutionary processes where coordination and cooperation evolve from the result of disaster. The August 11, 1966, "Friendly Fire" expended on the United States Coast Guard Cutter Point Welcome (WPB 82329) was one evolutionary link that forced a small measure operational union during the Vietnam War. the whole story: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill...Welcome2.html# This was the worst casualty inflicted upon the USCG during Vietnam. As someone else said, shit happens. The best we can hope for is to learn something to reduce the frequency of these "incidents". We usually gain some information to help prevent the same situation from recurring. Unfortunately, each situation has its own unique causes, and it is doubtful that we will ever have total eradication of "friendly fire " incidents. The Coast Guard went through a period of TQM which very nearly ruined it. We are, usually, our own worst enemy, and a military service cannot be run by committee. I also would like to see any REAL evidence of ANY military members being provided with "stimulants to stay sharp during combat flights". That sounds like a bit of information generated by the 4F boys at Joe's Bar and Grill around closing time. CWO4 Jerry Murdock, USCG (RET) Jerry __________________ I know of no country in which there is so little independence of mind and real freedom of discussion as in America. Alexis de Tocqueville

10-30-2007, 06:08 PM	#44
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	say again? this time in engrish. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

03-20-2007, 10:39 PM	#33
TheMercenary “Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo” Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 21,393	Shit happens. I feel very sorry for the soldiers on the ground who were hit. I feel more sorry for the families left behind. Hopefully their military will take care of them. But good God you fucks stop making this out to be something it is not. This is the Fog of War, sucks big donkey dick, but shit happens. Hopefully everyone learned from this. Someone please post how many years ago this happened? Someone please post how some fucking idiot on here is going to turn this into another Bush bashing opportunity? Give me a frigging break...

10-30-2007, 05:44 PM	#41
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Well hello Desert Rat. Welcome to the Cellar.

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