Vista or Not

[mbpark]

TW,

I invite you to try any app that relies on a serial port and DOS-style timing APIs to do its work. I also invite you to try some of the older direct APIs (which were part of previous standards) for direct printer port access .

When I worked in the controls field, we had all machines that had Windows 95 booted into DOS mode for a reason. Windows was not (and still isn't) a hard real-time system. OS/2 was quite better at handling timing, and you had to rewrite everything to use the Windows API and pray that it worked. Many good apps were written close to the hardware in DOS to get the timing right.

However, change is good. Many of those apps have been rewritten for other OSes. Windows is still a decent SCADA platform, but not much else .

Windows Vista is a good step forward for enhanced security. However, we need to evaluate how the product works on the market for a few months before drawing any conclusions. Remember, Windows XP was the most secure Windows ever (as said by MS themselves).

There will be victims of this approach, as there have been at every previous generation (Novell, WordPerfect, Ashton-Tate), however there will be new software vendors to replace them.

Originally Posted by tw

Clearly to gain security, then backwards compatibility is at risk. However previously we were told MS-DOS applications would not work on NT. Some did not only because they were written in violation of previous standards for code writing. But most all did contrary to the rumors.

As I understand it, Microsoft had a 'change of heart' concerning Windows. They invited security experts into a large meeting. As a result of MS 'new attitude', this meeting is said to have continued all through the night and into morning. MS was given an earful.

Some things are said to have changed with Vista. MS has provided security coders deeper access into NT's core functions. MS's Operating System group is now working more cooperatively with non-MS application software vendors. This would have happened earlier had MS been broken up. As a result of 'turning the ship', even the head of MS's Operating Systems group lost his job. He could not implement the change.

So yes, Vista is the beginning of big changes. History says we will learn what really does and does not work with Vista. History also says some hardware manufacturers are so anti-innovative as to not adapt their drivers, properly, to Vista security requirements. Yes there will be some software that cannot make the cut. History says, at this point, we don't know how much 'legacy compatibility' will be lost.

My guess is that security enhancements to Vista will be as major (only in the Operating Systems group) as the need to adpat to Internet was maybe a decade earlier. Back then, MS was on the verge of going like DEC only because MS had ignored the Internet - until some MS employees kept Bill up all night showing him this thing called Internet. Same could be said of MS Operating System group ignoring security for too long.

Products will 'fall off the deck' as the SS Microsoft turns abruptly - as did MS mailbox based programs and Netbios, NetBeui, etc before MS discovered the internet (without Al Gore's help).

[tw]

Originally Posted by mbpark

TW,

I invite you to try any app that relies on a serial port and DOS-style timing APIs to do its work. I also invite you to try some of the older direct APIs (which were part of previous standards) for direct printer port access .

Do you mean on Vista or on any Windows?

[mbpark]

both, seriously

[tw]

Originally Posted by mbpark

both, seriously

I am not sure what was posted. I still use my DOS programs (ir Word Star 4 and a DOS based schematic capture program) even with XP and also to print. Restrictions exist because some functions in NT based Windows are were not available in DOS. But what worked in DOS still works in XP.

I am curious what we have gained and lost in Vista because Vista may be the first major step since NT obsoleted Windows 95 and since ME finally gave up and conceded to Windows 2000.

In the case of DOS serial access, I would write serial programs to work in DOS and NT. If the serial progarm used serial hardware in functions not intended, then the NT version failed. Only some serial access fucntions initiated in software actually appeared on that serial port hardware because the action was simulated - part of the NT separation of hardware from appliction software. And those programs worked just fine IF standard access was used when written for DOS.

Even some hardware functions - dedicated access to printer port - work just fine in both DOS and XP. But again, access to the printer required acces via standard DOS functions. Some software tried printing using 'innovative' techniques.

Well some of those functions always left me wondering how much security was lost because DOS compatibility was preserved. And with the complete rewrite of NT - now called Vista - are those DOS simulations still available?

The point is that even my WordStar 4.0 only for DOS works even in XP. I can access files, use serial ports, and print to local printers even using Wordstar 4.0 - a program with a 1978 copywrite works even in 2003 XP.

What was the problem with Windows in real time? Its clock time period was too slow (something like 1 millisecond). Its abilities to reply to real time events - too slow. OS/2 was better suited to real time applications because it was faster at responding to real time events, faster at switching between processes, and used a faster real time event clock. But then Windows was not intended to be a real time operating system. Windows was intended for multitasking to an operator interface; need not be so fast as a real time OS.

Meanwhile, the OS called Vista is a major change. So radical that Nvidea GeForce controller drivers - one of the few hardware items that can crash a real pre-emptive multitasking system - are defective.

I don't know the major changes that MS performed to change APIs. I would expect that many programs were written using API in manner not originally intended by MS.

Futhermore, it is my experience with MS, Unix, Dec, Perkin Elmer, HP, Macrodata, and even GE computers - the developer has little regard for the user - often does not bother to properly document what is intended. Seen this often with some MS products and would not be surprised to see many MS APIs implemented as not intended - just as I have found uses of the serial port as a total violation of what that hardware was intended for.

As an example, look at MS APIs for TCP-IP access. Where in MS documentation is there anything related to TCP/IP defined functions. The code is describes as if the author had no idea was the seven ISO layers were.

Mbpark - in short, I am not sure where you are going and whether above paragraphs agree or disagree with some part of your posts. I expect Vista to be chock full of surprises because I expect Vista to be a change as fundamental as Windows 3.1 was to Windows 95 - but without those changed causing anything immediately obvious to the user. Curious will be whether all DOS compatibilty that existed in XP is lost in Vista. But with emphasis on security, I would not be surprised to see some DOS compatibility lost. Still my DOS programs from the 1980s still worked in XP.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I was at staples today. They are pushing vista in 32 flavors and for another month or so, if you buy it from them they will come to your house and install it. As a reality check for those that are comfortable probing your PCs Psyche, there are many that wouldn't think of attempting to install anything.