Because they won't fight back...

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by bluesdave

I am not trying to start an argument with you - I'm not as resilient as Bruce! :p

You pussy. :p
Start here or here or here.
You know he's full of shit, so go get 'em, tiger.

He's weaseling by saying a concept, or even working example existed before it was perfected, miniaturized, and made commercially viable, by the space program. It's like his argument that the German fighter planes had fuel injection back in WW II so GM should have had it after the war. Despite the fact that the system cost more than 10 cars and required hours of maintenance after only a few hours of flight.

And saying something would have been invented/developed anyway, is horseshit that can't be proved or disproved. There's tons of consumer products that were made better by materials and technology that was financed by NASA, because it was necessary for their use, but consumers could have got along without it. We had wool, we didn't need thinsulate, it just makes life more pleasant and created new products/jobs.

[bluesdave]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

You pussy. :p
Start here or here or here.
You know he's full of shit, so go get 'em, tiger.

Thanks Bruce. Your links cover more directly what tw denied. I only had time to do a quick search on the NASA site, and came up with some incredible number of results, so I went through the first page of results and picked a few to quote back at him. I knew that if I had Googled I would have found more, but I was supposed to be researching for my project... You know, the sort of thing tw just does not seem to get - using science for the benefit of mankind. I know that you understand, and most Cellarites do too, I'm sure.

[tw]

Originally Posted by bluesdave

I think that a small base on the Moon does make some sense, and at the time NASA was pushed to build the ISS there were many people at NASA who argued against the expense, saying that they could build a Moon base for less money, and do more robotic/automated research. Politics *did* override logic, but that does not mean that "man" has not benefited from the tools and materials that NASA has developed.

Most of those 'benefits' would exist anyway - with or without a manned space program. More useful spinoffs come from robotics and other technically more advanced missions.

Meanwhile. a small moonbase may have benefits for the same reason that Hubble needs periodic visits. Putting man in a moon base for six month visits makes no sense since even the ISS cannot (yet) perform any science for same reasons. What makes a small (temporary quarters) moonbase useful? Only if it becomes part of a larger science objective and only if constructed so that men can do something other than maintenance.

Currently no objective exists nor is defined. Decision for a Moonbase is really part of this 'need' to put a man on Mars - again without any strategic objective defined.

Tremendous science is ongoing in unmanned (robotic) missions only because the little people are defining questions and problems AND then top management (ie politicians) provide the support. This is how science prospers in places such as JPL and Greenbelt MD. That same story is made so obvious in "Apollo 13" (by Ron Howard). The murder of seven Challenger astronauts is a classic example of what happens when top management knows better than 'people who get the work done'. In Challenger, these MBA types could not find an engineer to approve the launch. So they only let 'managers' vote. Murder of seven people.

Same symptoms for destruction of science are apparent in this Moonbase complete with ongoing canceling of satellites and research programs in large numbers. Even trashed was the next LEO weather satellite so necessary for 10 day weather forecasting. Even that last 10% of NASA's budget where almost all NASA science occurs is being trashed only for a Man to Mars agenda.

Believe me. It I thought for one minute that this exploration was done for the advancement of mankind, I would be calling for it louder than anyone. I worked in that industry. Items that I designed (rescued) were even involved in Shuttle missons.

Wonderful science is being performed by science superstars such as Solar Max, Compton, Chandra, Hubble, and Spitzer. Neither space shuttle nor ISS is doing anything because both were created for agendas other than science. Space Shuttle has been an impediment to science, in part, because it barely gets out of earth's atmosphere - too pathetically low for most science work. Most science satellites are on their own because Shuttle meant an astronaut could provide neither service nor support. Just another example of hype causing impediment to science and the advancement of mankind.

Worse, the superstars are getting old. Comptom had to be abandoned - again because shuttle could not help. Few new birds are available to replace our aging fleet of superstars - thanks to money getting suck up by manned spaceflight and a silly manned Mars mission. And other useful birds (ie ultraviolet or frequencies between light and radio) cannot even be proposed.

So how many even knew of these superstars before assuming a moonbase would have a purpose?

A president with intelligence would have asked some inciteful questions such as Kennedy did in 1960. But as Iraq weapons inspector David Kay noted and Bob Woodward reported, "Kay left the meeting almost shocked as Bush's lack on inquisitiveness. Kay had a PhD and had taught at high levels, and he was used to being asked challenging, aggressive questions."

Bush cannot ask as a leader would do. He and his adminstration do not have grasp of reality. Somehow they know more than those who do the work. It explains why a Moonbase would be only for a poltical agenda as the constellation of superstars in science die without replacement.

Cited is but one constellation of science - deep space observatories. So many other constellations are also required by mankind. All unmaned. All function quite well without humans. All doing things that man cannot. All that need replacement. Any yet money is being sucked from all science for a manned spaceflight program that has no science purpose.

Why is this so relevant to The Cellar? Because 'common man' ignorance leaves science cannibalized by extremist politicians who are more worried about their legacy. Moonbase and Man to Mars is a creation of the White House; not of science. That is common konwledge. We all well know intelligence levels and 'appreciation of science' in that House. Still that alone is not enough to worry. What makes these manned spaceflights even more worrying is that reasons for those missions (the strategic objective) does not even exist.

Again we go right back to a fundamental concept in all management. What is the strategic objective? None is provided that promotes America, science, or mankind. Therein lies the symptom of a president more interested in his own legacy.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Start here or here or here.

In every case, the technology was developed and then used by Nasa or was going to exist anyway. Using that same logic, we could also prove how $1 billion to develop a new grass seed cured human diseases, reduced global warming, discovered hidden archeological treasures, and discovered new miracle plastics. Same bullshit as in Bruce's three classic propaganda citations. Also not in Bruce's list are those other innovations stifled because so much money went to NASA.

Those citations are classic propaganda that works on those who also confuses a treadmill under a planes wheels with airspeed. Meanwhile, we used to have fun making up those same 'look how we saved the world' myths. Then see them published as 'science that would not happen if we did not do it'.

Clearly computers would not exist had the auto industry not spun off so much technoloy. Steel manufacturers used to prove that the plastic industry was only a spinoff from their innovations - when big steel was really doing no innovation. Amzaing how we could make this stuff up and get other to believe we were therefore saving the world with our spinoffs. Contest was to see which myth would actually get printed. Clearly Henry Ford saved the computer industry. It is nonsense and it is propaganda that works - just like proof that Saddam had WMDs.

Meanwhile, those who grasp reality would be more concerned about relevant science such as the constellation of deep space observatories. 10% of Nasa's budget does almost all the science. And that is being diminished for what? Tang? Lighweight blankets? These clearly would not have existed if not for a manned space program. Bull.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Start here or here or here.

Let's start with one propaganda list that Bruce provides - proving how all this stuff would not exist if not for manned spaceflight:

GROUND PROCESSING SCHEDULING SYSTEM - it was called project management software. So old that it was even used on the Nautilus in 1957. How did manned spaceflight create it? Myth.

SEMICONDUCTOR CUBING - three dimensional ICs have been implements or experimented with for decades. Hitachi DRAM used some of those ideas in their 1980 memory chips. How did manned spaceflight create it? Myth.

STRUCTURAL ANALYSIS - computer aided architectural analysis and same for airplanes did not exist 20 plus years ago? Bull. This stuff was being uses as soon as it was available first in other industries such as aircraft. Much of it was done with slide rules on the B-29. How did manned spaceflight create it? Myth.

WINDOWS VISUAL NEWS READER (Win Vn) - clearly newsgroups and applications doing same on timesharing would not have existed without manned spaceflight. Clearly the technical documentation system we used to locate prints on the IBM mainframe - before PCs existed - is due to manned spaceflight. How did manned spaceflight create it? Myth.

AIR QUALITY MONITOR - this stuff was required by CA semiconductor facilities generations ago where hazardous material venting via the common exhaust system might even create a Bhopal. Same was also necessary in places such as refineries. How did manned spaceflight create it? Myth.

VIRTUAL REALITY - so clearly the military is going to NASA for this stuff and not to the gaming companies that they have been using for virtual reality simulations. Clearly even those crude 1950 and 1960 flight simulators used to teach pilots would not have existed without manned spaceflight. How did manned spaceflight create it? Myth.

And so it goes. Most things in this world would not have happened without manned spaceflight. Also so easy to convince all that Saddam attacked the World Trade Center - using this same reasoning. It is called propaganda. It works on those who don't ask embarrassing questions. Bruce - I never expected you to be so gullible.

How many NASA spinoffs would have happened had we instead invested $1 blllion to develop a new grass seed. Using this propaganda, probably the same. Imagine the better strutural analysis program used to develop a better casing for the seed. Clearly we should spend a billion developing better grass.

[xoxoxoBruce]

You keep referring to "Manned Space Flight". NASA and the JPL are involved in much more than just that. "Manned Space Flight" is the public face of NASA, the part that gets the public to approve of NASA existing in the first place. The other things NASA and JPL do, have a much larger impact on us, but the general population doesn't identify with those programs.

If Congress tells us, "If we pass this bill/expenditure, we'll get a cure for cancer and a 42" flat screen TV for everyone", the public will be saying, "Yes, yes, I want a TV!"

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The other things NASA and JPL do, have a much larger impact on us, but the general population doesn't identify with those programs.

Manned spaceflight is the 90% of NASAs budget. The 10% included things such as JPL, new airplance designs, the Scram jet engine research, earth atmospheric research, Hubble, Martian Rovers, probes to Jupiter and Saturn, etc. Almost all science by NASA that is performed in that 10% that is being sucked dry only for the glory project - manned spaceflight which includes ISS and Man to Mars (also includes a Moonbase).