What is it to be Christian ?

[Flint]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

"Christian" means "Christ-like". No matter how impressive the buildings, the choir robes, the Popemobile, or the rituals, Christianity is the condition of following Christ, not the religious, legalistic accoutrements.

So, what should I call people who call themselves Christians?
The most respectful thing for me to do is honor their own wishes to be called Christians.

Originally Posted by Flint

...I'm not imposing a definition upon Christianity.

[Undertoad]

but what are the long term effects of constantly soaking in this imagery and hatred?

You tell us; you're soaking in it.

You're so fixated on it, you think it's the predominant culture.

Glocks, pimps, and baby daddy. Where do they appear on Wikipedia's list of the 50 top grossing films in the US and Canada?

In which of those films would you find any one of the three cultural notes you find so significant?

None. Not one. In fact, out of the fifty films, there's really only one that's a big long soak in hatred and violence and ugly subculture.

It's currently #11, "Passion of the Christ".

[Undertoad]

One more for fun. Is the culture going morally astray?

MTV2's icon is Cerberus, the 3-headed guardian of the gates of hades.

Anyone can define the culture as "evil" by their definition of evil. In this case, your source is either Greek mythology or Harry Potter. But hey, whatever you hit, call it the target: yeah, yeah, I'm with you man, MTV2's icon is evil and a sure sign of the coming culture wars! That's where they strike first, you know, MTV2. They don't do it on cable channels with a viewership of over 25,000 because that would be too obvious.

Feeling mocked and ridiculed? But it isn't, it's just honest conversation.

[Flint]

Maybe the athiest conspiracy erases all evidence of their presence, like ninjas.

[Bullitt]

Three headed guardian mutt of the gates to Hades?

one... two..

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

That's a popular viewpoint. But it's based on the misconception that this is an atheist country that is somehow being taken over by Christians. Actually, the opposite is more true. The US is founded on Judeo-Christian philosophy, plain and simple. No amount of whining can change that.....

Wrong.

Amendment 1 (1st for a reason)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

In Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, an agreement signed between the United States and the Muslim region of North Africa in 1797 after negotiations concluded by George Washington (the document, which was approved by the Senate in accordance with Constitutional law, and then signed by John Adams), it states flatly, "The Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." signed by John Adams
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" John Adams

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; -Benjamin Franklin

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law" -Thomas Jefferson

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.
From: Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"
John Adams April 27,1797

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries"
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -James Madison fourth president and father of the Constitution

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." -James Madison

The words "one nation under God" were not added to the Pledge of allegiance until 1953

None of the 85 Federalist Papers written in support of the Constitution reference God, the Bible, religion or Christianity.

The words "in God we trust were not consistently added to all money until the 1950s after the McCarthy Era

James Madison, Jefferson's close friend and political ally, was just as vigorously opposed to religious intrusions into civil affairs as Jefferson was. In 1785, when the Commonwealth of Virginia was considering passage of a bill "establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," Madison wrote his famous "Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments" in which he presented fifteen reasons why government should not be come involved in the support of any religion.
The views of Madison and Jefferson prevailed in the Virginia Assembly

Jesus even said it:
Mark 12:17
And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Matthew 22:21
They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Luke 20:25
And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.

"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion." -Thomas Paine

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

They're not talking about Vishnu.

They're not talking about the Christian god, either. Or they're talking about both. They leave it up to the reader to fill in the blank. This makes sense, as they certainly were not all Christians themselves.

[mrnoodle]

I am not a source for research. I'm just a guy. It's easy to play "battling factoids" and have either side declare themselves the winner. Whoever has the catchiest comeback wins. whatever.

All I'm saying is that there's something that's gradually insinuating itself into our culture, and the evidence of it is growing constantly. It wasn't there 50 years ago. You tell me what it is, since I'm so obviously out of touch.

This thread illustrates what I'm talking about in many ways. I'm saying we're losing a connection to something good and necessary, and the responses vary from wise-ass remarks to deliberate misconstruing of what I'm saying. Flint, this means you. I said there's no atheist conspiracy, let it go. I also said that I was not accusing you of semantic games, so don't prove me wrong.


edit: more posts came in while i was typing. The model for the MTV dog is, in fact, cerberus, and it's meant to be "dark", just like the little heavy metal skulls and stuff. Yes, it has 2 heads, hence MTV2.

The majority of the founding fathers identified with the God of Christianity and the moral precepts from the Judeo-Christian ethic. Christianity was originally a sect of Judaism, and they worship the same God. Deism rejected Christianity, but the Providence they believed in was a version of the western God.

By the way, Thomas Jefferson also wrote:

“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." [Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803]

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” [Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781]

“It [the Bible] is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
[Jan 9, 1816 Letter to Charles Thomson]

We can all pull quotes from the bible, from the founding fathers, and from any other text to bolster our own claims and argue against others. But taken as a whole, there is no doubt that the US was a nation of faith at its inception.

[Flint]

That's not fair... Why does Undertoad get to mock and ridicule you, but I get called out for it?
Am I a "wise-ass" for reading "something that's gradually insinuating itself into our culture" as "conspiracy" ???

Edit moved to new post...

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

We can all pull quotes from the bible, from the founding fathers, and from any other text to bolster our own claims and argue against others. But taken as a whole, there is no doubt that the US was a nation of faith at its inception.

I absolutely doubt that. The treaty and first amendment are both very clear.
"The Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

All I'm saying is that there's something that's gradually insinuating itself into our culture, and the evidence of it is growing constantly. It wasn't there 50 years ago. You tell me what it is, since I'm so obviously out of touch.

It's been there for more than 50 years, and it's called progress. Occasionally there are generations where there's virtually no progress, and one's life is fundamentally the same as one's grandparents', but a period of progress always comes along to make people say "kids these days" or "back in my day".

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

...All I'm saying is that there's something that's gradually insinuating itself into our culture, and the evidence of it is growing constantly. It wasn't there 50 years ago. You tell me what it is, since I'm so obviously out of touch.
...

Here's my take.

Gods were created to explain what we don't understand. Thousands of years ago, we didn't understand thunder, so Thor was the explanation. As we understand more, there is less of a need to rely on a "god". Scientists can explain pretty much everything from nanoseconds after the big bang to the present. Sure there are gaps and sure there are alternative explanations, like religion. But "god" comes down to being that which created matter/energy and caused the big bang. If you want to say that's "god", be my guest. If he designed our unniverse intelligently from the other side of the big bang, go right ahead.

The only real mysteries left are "why are we here?" and "what happens to us after we die". People who are uncomfortable with death want reassurance that we don't just become worm food, so they take solice in religion. I sometimes wish I could do that. I attend church, and feel all warm and fuzzy, and walk out thinking things like "people do not rise from the dead. The story of Saul on the road to Damascus sounds more like a UFO encounter than anything else".

And "God" has printed a manual on how to get to Heaven. It happens to be a self-conflicting book, written by men, but is claimed to be written by/ inspired by God. Some of it is actually a great guide for the survival of a young species, especially Leviticus and the ten commandments. Is it literal, or allegory - life lessons in story form? It can't be both. Until that's decided and the internal conflicts resolved - it's just a book. Fiction, IMHO.

Now-a-days, God becomes this omnipotent being that controls the unniverse. "God willing", God forbid", cause abdication of responsibility. A religious person is not responsible for his circumstances, something happened to them because they didn't go to church, didn't pray, talk to snakes, do the jig, whatever. And if you get on God's bad side, there'll be hell to pay - literally.

What's happened in the last 50 years is that knowledge has increased dramatically. People have more free time. They realize that they don't *want* to follow dogma. And the other side has fought back, trying to force these "non-beleivers" to behave as "good Christians", using legislation. Information spreads quickly, so when Jim Bakker, Pat Robinson, Jimmy Swaggart, or a self-proclaimed "Christian" behaves in a non-Christian way, *all* Christians and Christianity loses creditbility, and more people leave the faith. We also see how world wide, religion has caused conflict, death, destruction, and suffering, and don't want parts of that.

Are we losing a connection with something good and necessary? I don't feel like I am, but I'm not connected with religion, and have'nt been for 35 years.

Sorry for the tw-ish post

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by Flint

That's not fair... Why does Undertoad get to mock and ridicule you, but I get called out for it?
Anyway, how am I a "wise-ass" for reading "something that's gradually insinuating itself into our culture" as a "conspiracy" ???

UT had a disclaimer. Plus, a conspiracy requires organization, and I don't think what I'm talking about is a deliberately planned thing, just a decay of some kind.

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

It's been there for more than 50 years, and it's called progress. Occasionally there are generations where there's virtually no progress, and one's life is fundamentally the same as one's grandparents', but a period of progress always comes along to make people say "kids these days" or "back in my day".

Progress? -- [ IMG=goatse ]

[Undertoad]

All I'm saying is that there's something that's gradually insinuating itself into our culture, and the evidence of it is growing constantly. It wasn't there 50 years ago. You tell me what it is, since I'm so obviously out of touch.

I swear: things are bad because you perceive them as bad. Let me give you a fresh spin on -- uh, stuff I think you're trying to worry about --

The culture seems to be becoming more openly sexual. Dwellars are openly posting nipple shots on the forums! Even as the FCC cracks down, wild west broadcasters on satellite and internet find new ways to go past what seems to be any level of decorum!

The teenage pregnancy rate in this country is at its lowest level in 30 years, down 36% since its peak in 1990. A growing body of research suggests that both increased abstinence and changes in contraceptive practice are responsible for recent declines in teenage pregnancy.

Source (warning: PDF)

Can you explain that? The youth culture is foul beyond belief; they're "soaking" in it. And at the end of the day, their behavior is largely close to, or better than, what it was twenty years ago.

It may be that they already have a different take on the art of their culture than you do: their take is more ironic.

[Flint]

Edit: I really would prefer to discuss this on a rational level, with a minimum of embellishment via impossible-to-verify anecdotal/emotional conjecture, but when a subject drifts into a realm that isn't intelligently debatable, I tend to inject a little humor. It isn't mean-spirited.