Why does America need Secret Prisons?

[Undertoad]

I realize that FrontPage is biased, but I'd never before seen a specific example that waterboarding was effective.

I remain unconvinced that it is effective or ineffective. The notion that someone will tell you "anything" in order to stop being waterboarded, seems to me to be proof it's useful. If enough people tell you "anything" you can clearly put their various "anythings" together to figure out which anythings are true and which are not. Perhaps the orange alerts are because there weren't enough people being waterboarded. I guess we will never know.

I severely doubt that the CIA set up the means to do this sort of thing to 14-16 individuals if it doesn't work. I bet they know a lot better about whether it is effective than we do. I do not believe they would set up such an infrastructure for the simple joy of torturing bad guys.

I share the basic lack of trust of the government and the entire situation and am as appalled as anyone that this happens. On the other hand, if there was another attack in the US more effective than 9/11, this debate would be immediately over, and our resolve would be to do whatever it takes with the certain knowledge that we are the good guys.

[Griff]

Should effectiveness even be part of the calculus? If we operate like bad guys aren't we by definition bad guys. It doesn't matter what we are reacting to. I think folks who see themselves as the good guys are capable of at least as much evil as those who recognize they've crossed moral boundaries. During the Crusades folks knew they were in the right so they got comfortable doing evil. In WWII cities were bombed and burned by the good guys and we still defend it. Bin Laden knows he's a good guy...

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Griff

I think folks who see themselves as the good guys are capable of at least as much evil as those who recognize they've crossed moral boundaries.

Originally Posted by Flint

Look at the history of mankind. Every culture, even ones that commit horrible atrocities, consider themselves to be the "good guys" - nobody ever thinks they are in the wrong. Nobody. This can't possibly be accurate. Every culture tries to define "evil" and fails because of their own skewed persepctive. Occam's Razor dictates that our culture is no different. On the basis of pure logic, I can't possibly believe that right now, in the country where I live, in the century that I live in, we have finally, after all of history, achieved the one true knowledge of good and evil, and can now point our finger in any direction and say, with 100% accuracy "this is evil" or "this isn't evil" . . .