Emergence of humanity

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

btw, what the heck do you mean by "it never begins or ends".

i mean that i believe that souls endure. the physical manifestation completes the person, but is not what gives one 'humanity'. I believe that i was 'human' long before i was born into this body, and will continue to be so long after i die. I've no idea when a soul first inhabits a physical body....could be before OR after or during birth. i just dont know. it doesn't really matter, i guess.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

I'm having a really hard time understanding how you could reasonably say that a child is not human until 2-3 months old.

I don't think either Clodfobble or I were saying that.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

9th, I wasn't saying a child is fit to be aborted until 2-3 months old. I'm a brain-function/viability woman for legal purposes, myself. I was just saying they move beyond being eating/pooping machines sooner than 6 months.

I just went back and looked at baby pictures, and you are right. My daughter stopped being an eating/pooping machine at about 3 months. There's a person in there at 3 months.

[Undertoad]

It's a good thing to get one particular term right, and that's "human"

A thing is human if it has the right chromosomes. A living blood cell is human even if it is on the sidewalk. What we are discussing is either what human thing has rights, or what confers a new level of specialness to that human thing. The thread title calls this "humanity", which I find confusing. I prefer the term "person" or "personhood", in that all cells/collections of cells with the right chromosomes are human, but not all are persons.

I think all sides can agree on these terms and that the terms are neutral to the argument.

[LabRat]

Originally Posted by Flint

I interact with my child, who won't be born for about another month.

I did this with my daughter. Toward the end of my pregnancy, we would tap on my belly, and she would kick out at us. It was a riot!!

[bbro]

Originally Posted by Ibram

I agree with everyone that said as soon as it can think/survive outside the mother's body.

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

In support of this, I would point out that I've never heard of a funeral for a miscarried fetus. It is NOT treated the same as a human child.

I don't really want to get too involved, but I had to comment on both of these statements which are complete and utter bullshit. There are many women that I know that were heartbroken when they had miscarriages and still consider them children. They felt and had services just the same as if a 5 month old would die. They are treated the same as a human child because to them (and me), it IS a human child.

Originally Posted by Labrat

Originally Posted by Flint
I interact with my child, who won't be born for about another month.


I did this with my daughter. Toward the end of my pregnancy, we would tap on my belly, and she would kick out at us. It was a riot!!

My brother and sister in law are going through this. Whenever he laughs, the baby kicks, making him laugh, making the baby kick, etc etc. Needless to say, I don't know how funny my sister in law thinks this is.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by bbro

I don't really want to get too involved, but I had to comment on both of these statements which are complete and utter bullshit. There are many women that I know that were heartbroken when they had miscarriages and still consider them children. They felt and had services just the same as if a 5 month old would die. They are treated the same as a human child because to them (and me), it IS a human child.

That's your experience. My experience is different, not bullshit any more than yours is.
I didn't say people weren't upset. I said they don't have funerals.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Santorum brought his home from the hospital to show his kids, and then held a funeral.

So maybe only radical right wing conservative self-espoused religious fundamentalist whackos have funerals for their miscarriages.

What would you think of a woman who had an abortion, then had a funeral for it?

[bbro]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

That's your experience. My experience is different, not bullshit any more than yours is.
I didn't say people weren't upset. I said they don't have funerals.

Lots of people have funerals, they just aren't talked about because people don't like talking about miscarriages. After it happens, people that it didn't affect (and sometimes, sadly, people it did) don't acknowledge that the woman was ever pregnant, had a child, or had a traumatic event happen in their life.

I am sorry if I offended you, I probably shouldn't have used the word bullshit, but I have seen many women struggling with loss and with people treating their child like it wasn't human and doesn't deserve to be remembered or to have a funeral.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

I laughed my ass off when the reports about parents in China selectively aborting children based on sex described it as a 'horrific abuse'. If a woman doesn't want the baby because it's the wrong sex is that any worse than because she wants a few more years to climb the social ladder??? And what about the parents who abort children with genetic disorders or diseases, or deformities??? If "it's the woman's right to choose" then why can we pass judgement depending on whether we agree with her motive for doing so????

The hypocracy is nausiating.

Usually the big issue with the Chinese abortions is the fact that it's due to China's one-child policy.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Santorum brought his home from the hospital to show his kids, and then held a funeral.

It's a Catholic thing.

[xoxoxoBruce]

They use dead fetuses to raise money?

[Spexxvet]

a buck a piece. All proceeds to benefit pedophilia.

[9th Engineer]

Fundraiser organized by NMBLA?

[Happy Monkey]

No, NAMFLA.