Antisocial Personality Disorder - Page 7

Happy Monkey · 07-14-2006, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skysidhe

The fact that we interpret things as we will since we have a free will to do so proves we are not automations.

No it doesn't. If you and Flint both started at identical states, with identical brains and identical bodies, with identical upbringings, and read the statement in identical settings with identical states of mind, and then interpreted it differently, that would be evidence against the automaton proposition.

The choice of the word automaton may not be optimal, as some people may take it to imply some sort of mass production, and therefore everyone acting the same. A better word may be deterministic.

Flint · 07-13-2006, 10:54 AM

Perhaps.

9th Engineer · 07-13-2006, 12:37 PM

You claim that we are at about the same level as bacteria, so then why are we debating human rights issues in other areas of this forum? If we are as Flint says then we don't need to because human happiness is also an illusion.

9th Engineer · 07-13-2006, 12:40 PM

Big thanks out to Pangloss for mentioning Matt Nagle, one of my profs was involved in some research regarding the chip used. Google the term 'Utah Array' for more info.

Flint · 07-13-2006, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

why are we debating human rights issues in other areas of this forum? . . . we don't need to . . .

Draw your own conclusion based on the available evidence, but don't shoot the messenger, and don't put words in my mouth. There is a whole arena of debatable topics just begging to be discussed here, but arguing that "the Earth (read: man) is at the center of the universe" is not one of them.

9th Engineer · 07-13-2006, 02:04 PM

All I'm saying is that there's no reason to waste time and energy on something that isn't valuable. If happiness does not exist then there's no reason to pay attention to it. A good argument I've heard against teaching kids that we are glorified monkeys is that they will eventually make the inevitable connection, "Hey, if we're just animals then why care about them more than I would for a bird or rabbit?? 200 casualties in a firebombing? Big deal, they'll repopulate". If people are separate from animals then say so, if we arn't then stick to where that logic leads you.

Happy Monkey · 07-13-2006, 12:39 PM

Illusion or not, it's all we've got. We've still gotta live in it.

Trilby · 07-13-2006, 01:11 PM

*cue hippie music*

You guys are freaking me out...

Pangloss62 · 07-13-2006, 02:04 PM

I think the best thing about that story is that Matt is now a REALLY important part of breakthrough research. Probably makes it easier to deal with being paralyzed. As they say, "There but for the grace of...."

Wait a minute! I'm supposed to be an atheist!

07-13-2006, 02:06 PM

It's just a way of removing accountability for people who don't want to deal with it.

Ibby · 07-13-2006, 02:26 PM

I personally DO agree that humans and animals are equal, but I take the opposite approach... Humans shouldn't be treated badly, but neither should animials. Treat every creature as if it was your equal or your superior.

Flint · 07-13-2006, 02:26 PM

People are not seperate from the animals. Logic leads me there. And, it creates some interesting ethical questions and debates. But, at the first sign of trouble, I don't simply abandon logic and revert back to a state of superstition.

As individuals, we have to take responsibility for our actions because it is the right thing to do. There isn't anything coming down from above to force us into compliance - there is neither a bearded old man in the clouds, nor a biological imperative to control us into behaving correctly. We have to do that ourselves, to the best of our ability, with the tools we've been given. Being aware of what those tools are, and trying to understand them, doesn't automatically force us to a silly conclusion like "do whatever you want, it doesn't matter anyway." I don't think we should avoid clear thinking in favor of fear-based rhetoric.

9th Engineer · 07-13-2006, 02:35 PM

I was just bringing up the inconsistancy in punishments for killing animals and humans. We treat humans as more important than animals, I'm just saying we should look for the reason we do so.

Happy Monkey · 07-13-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

I was just bringing up the inconsistancy in punishments for killing animals and humans. We treat humans as more important than animals, I'm just saying we should look for the reason we do so.

In evolutionary terms? The answer is obvious- we treat them as more important 'cause thay are us. The emotional mechanism is called empathy, and empathy is stronger for those who are more similar to us - it's easier to put ourselves in their shoes. Unfortunately, this can also result in the various bigotries, where it becomes difficult to empathise with humans who are different from oneself in various inconsequential ways.

07-13-2006, 07:40 PM

I gotta say that I think this entire argument got started as someone's way of wimping out on saying "I don't beleive in God or spirit or spirituality." That's fine if folks want to be atheists. More power to you, but the the whole "we are but sub atomic particles" argument sounds suspiciously like the inverse of the intelligent design b.s.

Why can't people just stand up and stay, "I don't beleive" or "I believe"? Why the hell does science always have to be dragged in as the handmaiden of someone's personal vendetta of belief or disbelief?

I was raised a Christian and trained as a scientist. For years, I was at best an agnostic. Then a bunch of stuff happened in my life which turned me into a skeptical believer in a Greater Intelligence. BFD. Its my trip, and I'm not going to apologize for what I have experienced and learned on both sides of the equation to anyone. Yeah, every being follows the natural laws of science in so far as we understand them at this point in time. You can bet that our understanding of science is going to change considerably in the next 1,000 years - should we live so long.

As a biologist, I give the human species another 500 years max before we go the way of the trilobite. That doesn't mean I believe we are mere subatomic robots. It means that I think we are a complex species which still must follow the laws of biology and ecology.

Next topic, please.

07-13-2006, 10:54 AM	#2
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Perhaps. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

07-13-2006, 12:37 PM	#3
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	You claim that we are at about the same level as bacteria, so then why are we debating human rights issues in other areas of this forum? If we are as Flint says then we don't need to because human happiness is also an illusion. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

07-13-2006, 12:40 PM	#4
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	Big thanks out to Pangloss for mentioning Matt Nagle, one of my profs was involved in some research regarding the chip used. Google the term 'Utah Array' for more info. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

07-13-2006, 02:04 PM	#6
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	All I'm saying is that there's no reason to waste time and energy on something that isn't valuable. If happiness does not exist then there's no reason to pay attention to it. A good argument I've heard against teaching kids that we are glorified monkeys is that they will eventually make the inevitable connection, "Hey, if we're just animals then why care about them more than I would for a bird or rabbit?? 200 casualties in a firebombing? Big deal, they'll repopulate". If people are separate from animals then say so, if we arn't then stick to where that logic leads you. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

07-13-2006, 12:39 PM	#7
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Illusion or not, it's all we've got. We've still gotta live in it. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

07-13-2006, 01:11 PM	#8
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	cue hippie music You guys are freaking me out... __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

07-13-2006, 02:04 PM	#9
Pangloss62 Lecturer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Atlanta Posts: 768	Utah Array I think the best thing about that story is that Matt is now a REALLY important part of breakthrough research. Probably makes it easier to deal with being paralyzed. As they say, "There but for the grace of...." Wait a minute! I'm supposed to be an atheist! __________________ Things are never as good, or bad, as they seem.

07-13-2006, 02:06 PM	#10
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	It's just a way of removing accountability for people who don't want to deal with it.

07-13-2006, 02:26 PM	#11
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	I personally DO agree that humans and animals are equal, but I take the opposite approach... Humans shouldn't be treated badly, but neither should animials. Treat every creature as if it was your equal or your superior. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

07-13-2006, 02:35 PM	#13
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	I was just bringing up the inconsistancy in punishments for killing animals and humans. We treat humans as more important than animals, I'm just saying we should look for the reason we do so. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

07-13-2006, 07:40 PM	#15
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	I gotta say that I think this entire argument got started as someone's way of wimping out on saying "I don't beleive in God or spirit or spirituality." That's fine if folks want to be atheists. More power to you, but the the whole "we are but sub atomic particles" argument sounds suspiciously like the inverse of the intelligent design b.s. Why can't people just stand up and stay, "I don't beleive" or "I believe"? Why the hell does science always have to be dragged in as the handmaiden of someone's personal vendetta of belief or disbelief? I was raised a Christian and trained as a scientist. For years, I was at best an agnostic. Then a bunch of stuff happened in my life which turned me into a skeptical believer in a Greater Intelligence. BFD. Its my trip, and I'm not going to apologize for what I have experienced and learned on both sides of the equation to anyone. Yeah, every being follows the natural laws of science in so far as we understand them at this point in time. You can bet that our understanding of science is going to change considerably in the next 1,000 years - should we live so long. As a biologist, I give the human species another 500 years max before we go the way of the trilobite. That doesn't mean I believe we are mere subatomic robots. It means that I think we are a complex species which still must follow the laws of biology and ecology. Next topic, please.

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