Antisocial Personality Disorder

[Pangloss62]

Yes, I really don't believe in free will. So what? I'm still going to make choices and act accordingly. Who cares if those choices and actions are "free" or not? It's still me and my body. My present brain chemistry is based on genetics, experience, environment, and probably some chaos thrown in. And if I have a propensity toward self-examination, I can analyse myself and perhaps change my own behavior. I often think about why I think about what I think about. Yes, it can get confusing.

I have no shame in being a materialist. And there is no "right" or "wrong" either. That is why behaving ethically is hard; because we don't really have to.

[xoxoxoBruce]

They keep coming up with new explanations for why people do what they do and probably will as long as there's grant money and talk shows.

BUT, we are still liable for our actions. You have a brain tumor? chemical imbalance? bad childhood ? so what? If you cook and eat your children you pay.

[Pangloss62]

Personally, I've never believed in free will or a "soul," but for those that do, brain imaging evidence must seem like a threat.

You don't use science to explain your spiritual beliefs or lack there of.

Why not? You propose that "spiritual beliefs or lack there of [sic]" are somehow seperate from the brain? How could that be? From where does this "spiritual" component emerge? Flint's basic proposition is that anything outside our physicality enters the realm of the metaphysical (magic, etc). My only intent was to get people to talk about how almost all behaviors are now being reduced to brain chemistry, with a very explicit example. I said at the beginning how I feel about free will and a soul. Starting a thread with "I don't believe in God" would not produce much useful discussion.

Either "God" or this "greater power" (or both) are indeed dicks or there are no such things. To conclude the latter does not mean we should just sit on our hands and not do anything. Nihilism does not have to be negative. It's a starting point. It's up to "us," whatever our bodies can do to improve the world and help others. The "Golden Rule" should not be the exclusive province of the religious or spiritual. Are we not men, marichiko?

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

Why not? You propose that "spiritual beliefs or lack there of [sic]" are somehow seperate from the brain? How could that be? From where does this "spiritual" component emerge?

Why not what?

Np, I do not propose that a spiritual outlook is somehow seperate from the brain. It is our highly evolved brains which allow us to have a sense of awareness as unique selves, allows us to question and argue such things as metaphysics, makes us stand in awe of the stars on a clear summer's night. Does this understanding mean that I think physics is behind all of these things? Not necessarily. I am saying that it is an act of hubris on the part of scientists who proport to know all the answers to these things. I do not know these answrs and I studied science and the scientific method for 6 years in one of the finest science departments in one of this country's better universities. I became especially intrigued by the philosophy of science and made a study of that as well. In the end, Shakespeare summed it up as well as anyone, "There is more on heaven and earth than ever dreamed of in your philosophy."

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

Starting a thread with "I don't believe in God" would not produce much useful discussion.

I'll accept that, but why feed into the hands of the syncophants?

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

The "Golden Rule" should not be the exclusive province of the religious or spiritual. Are we not men, marichiko?

We are men and we are women, both. Nowhere did I imply that the Golden Rule is not a valid precept for people of any persuasion to attempt to follow. Try reading Edmund O. Wilson for starters. If you want to be a decent human being on purely scientific precepts, Wilson is as good a philosopher of science to start with as any. However, do not tell me that science has proved ther is no God or that science has proved we are all automotons running our predestined little lives to an extant that would make a Calvinist proud. Science has not done these things.

[wolf]

I am acquisitive.

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by wolf

I am acquisitive.

That word is so lady like. Like you've got to have your pinky finger up when you say it. :p

[wolf]

Originally Posted by skysidhe

That word is so lady like. Like you've got to have your pinky finger up when you say it. :p

It's a leftover from a short story I read when fairly young. I think it may have been one of Isaac Asimov's Black Widowers stories.

No shit... I pity drill sergeants today, I really do.

[AlternateGray]

Yeah, no kidding. According to policy, there is no such thing as someone unfit for the army- there're only drill sergeants who fail at their job. Bullshit, if you ask me. Imagine having to pass, by whatever means necessary, some shitbag shmuck, or worse, some kid you know is not going to cut it in his MOS.

As for those with an apparent pre-disposition to violent criminal behavior- I remember reading about a discovery made last year: there was an abnormality found in the brain of repeat violent offenders (serious offenders, not bar-fighters or whatnot). Now here's the thing: you can have the abnormality and have a decent upbringing with no unusual effect. You can have a screwed up upbringing and no abnormality with no unusual effect. If you have both, you are going to be screwed up. Wayne Gayce style. Well, maybe not that bad, but rape, murder, and serious assault are gonna be your hobbies. So essentially, there's a biological disposition, that requires a trigger. How true is it? *Shrugs* Too lazy to google for details and creds right now.

I've got a neurologist in the family, and there's nothing more depressing than listening to a long list of evidence supporting the theory that our "personalities", choices, free will, etc. are all an illusion, just purely the result of chemical reactions and such.
Gotta say, though, I think it's mostly crap. To back that up, I'm going to bring out a reference written by a guy who, as far as I can tell, could be an absolute loon. Wrote a really good book about consciousness and death, though- if you get the time, check it out, it's free and online. No, it's neither religious or Hubbardish. It's called Zen Physics. http://www.daviddarling.info/works/Z...s_front_1.html
If nothing else, it will give you actual answers to questions you've always wondered about, like "What actually happens when you show porn to someone who effectively has two brains, and how does that relate to me?"

Seriously, though, I'm a big fan of the theory that consciousness is its own thing, neither created by nor ending with the mind itself. Your mind may limit or give shape to your consciousness, thus limiting your actions somewhat, but "free will" still exists in varying degrees.

[Griff]

In special education, I run into learned helplessness a lot. These are the kids who have learned that they don't control their surroundings, because care-takers do too much for them. They wait for the world to act on them rather than acting on the world. It is pretty sad and if we let this excuse making nonsense go far enough, we'll have a whole society wired this way.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by Griff

if we let this excuse making nonsense go far enough, we'll have a whole society wired this way.

We already DO have a society wired this way. I see the wasteland everywhere. My twenty-something nephew lived with me for a few months last year and his complete lack of motivation astounded me. It was so pure it was a thing of beauty.

As for the 'soft addiction'--where do I sign up for one of those? It would be a pleasant change from the hard-core stuff I currently deal in. Does anybody watch A&E's INTERVENTION on Sunday nights? Great show.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Brianna

Does anybody watch A&E's INTERVENTION on Sunday nights? Great show.

I usually am to busy on weekends to catch TV, but I should probably watch this, if only to see the stupid shit families try to do before they involve me.

(I once read a family's "intervention plan" that had been written by a design engineer and computer programmer. He had plotted the intervention in excrutiating detail, including which chair the intended victim would sit in, how everyone would behave at the family party that was being held beforehand, and how everyone would say goodbye to the victim before said person was, of course, to be hauled off to rehab because they now understood the power and goodness of sobriety. Let's just say it didn't quite come off that way.)

Originally Posted by Brianna

We already DO have a society wired this way. I see the wasteland everywhere. My twenty-something nephew lived with me for a few months last year and his complete lack of motivation astounded me. It was so pure it was a thing of beauty.

As for the 'soft addiction'--where do I sign up for one of those? It would be a pleasant change from the hard-core stuff I currently deal in. Does anybody watch A&E's INTERVENTION on Sunday nights? Great show.

Yes, and what astounds me is how those who are enabling the HELL out of the addicts act like the biggest victims in it all... it is constant.

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by Griff

In special education, I run into learned helplessness a lot. These are the kids who have learned that they don't control their surroundings, because care-takers do too much for them. They wait for the world to act on them rather than acting on the world. It is pretty sad and if we let this excuse making nonsense go far enough, we'll have a whole society wired this way.

I too have been working in special education for a good twenty five years. People are resilient and strong. We are automomous but not automations.

We create.As a people we fight against the laws of nature to achieve some incredible things. Simple organisms might have only their biological functions, like the ants and sea urchins. They might not have a thinking choice but people are not bound by the seeming limitaions of mind or body, no matter how imperfect they maybe. They do have a choice regardless of what the body wants to do we can make it do something else to a degree. Sometimes living life by degrees is all some people have. I'd not like that reduced to simple cause and effect without the will involved. That's all I was saying.

[Griff]

Well said. Sure we're acted upon but in the end we choose. I've seen kids over-come learned helplessness, so I think the rest of us can as well.