Unsustainable Consumption

[socrates]

maggieL

But I suppose all good things must come to an end.

And so they must. Time will tell.

[Chefranden]

Originally posted by Undertoad
....Frankly I prefer the new rules, which say that if you are a dangerous tyrannical asshole, harboring other dangerous assholes and/or basically making trouble, you will be removed [if possible] to make way for your population's freedom and self-determination, and so that the resulting wealth generated by that freedom enriches both that nation and all who will trade with it.

The notion that it's done with all-volunteer armed forces and checked off via democratic means whilst a free media whines about the dangers and possible deaths is a huge bonus.

Of all the dangers in the world, the idea that a nation with huge power is running rampant freeing the peoples of the world is not high on the list.

Outside of West Germany and Japan at the end of WWII what country have we gone to war in that we allowed to have freedom and self determination? We are more often agents of the opposite in the name of national interest. Iran and Chile come to mind do they not. The US government in general and this administration in particular has not and is not interested in self-determination. After we devastate Iraq there will be no power given to the people, because the people just may decide that the oil belongs to them. And what the hell do you mean "possible deaths"? The Pentagon own estimates are for 30,000 civilian deaths and the Pentagon always underestimates cost by factors of between 2 and 5. Are you volunteering to be a soldier or collateral damage?

[Undertoad]

Hey, I'll take the under if you want to lay money on it. (No New Hampshire professors doing the count this time, please.) I assume that since the Pentagon is so awful against the spread that you're giving me odds...?

And - this is the sticking point - I absolutely demand the Geneva Convention definitions. Human shields don't count! If soldiers drive red crescent (or whatever) trucks in order to get position on troops, they are not civilians. And if soldiers run into mosques to intentionally create highly-charged political situations for international cameras, NOBODY in that church is a civvie. Hey, that's Geneva. Now are we agreed?

But you know... when it comes to numbers, I'm thinking about the 1 million civilians that have already died because Hussein has played hardball for years. And the millions more that could suffer - possibly including nations near you! - if he continues to play hardball in the future.

[hermit22]

I'd have to look back at the Geneva Convention docs to ensure that it specifies non-combatants (ie. priests) as combatants. But we'll assume it does (I don't think so; witness the Noriega operation). Wouldn't attacking that church be a horrible thing to do politically? When we try to devise the rules and methods of national security, we must do so with the popular effect our actions will have in mind. We were so bent on destruction of the Soviet Union that we became myopic in this regard - which is, in large part, why we're seeing the current backlash. If we start attacking any mosque a soldier runs into whether or not they attack from inside its walls, it will appear to be proof of Islamic extremist rhetoric about our inherent evil.

[Undertoad]

I had look, and Geneva doesn't work the way we need it to work for our purposes.

Geneva prohibts attack of any civilian location. But it also prohibits *any* military use of civilian locations. In fact, in discussing hospitals, it goes so far as to say that handguns and similar arms taken from military personnel prior to treatment are OK. That's because ANY other millitary presence is unacceptable.

The problem is that Geneva seems to assume, in its approach, that both sides agree to use Geneva.

[jaguar]

Fat chance, the US, CHina, Russia and pretty much every conflict ahve a long history of breaking it. Still, i think it has helped.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by UT in October 2002

A lot of folks wring their hands over sustainability, but they usually make the mistake of not considering improved productivity and new innovation over that time period.

George Will comes to this same conclusion in today's Washington Post, in a piece titled "Why doom has not materialized".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...b19_story.html

Originally Posted by GW

In 1972, we were warned (by computer models developed at MIT) that we were doomed. We were supposed to be pretty much extinct by now, or at least miserable. We are neither. So, what went wrong?
...
The modelers examined 19 commodities and said that 12 would be gone long before now — aluminum, copper, gold, lead, mercury, molybdenum, natural gas, oil, silver, tin, tungsten and zinc.
...
The modelers missed something — human ingenuity in discovering, extracting and innovating. Which did not just appear after 1972.

It turned out that when the commodities were needed, more were always found; or in the case of one of them (mercury), replaced with something else and nobody much noticed.

Impending doom always makes an exciting story, and a story you want to repeat to others. But the real story -- actually more exciting, if you stop to think about it -- is how mankind's innovations overcome almost all obstacles. Stuff just gets better.

[jimhelm]

We are the greatest! Woooooo!

Yeah!



Matt Lauer can suck it!

[Griff]

We're thinking similarly.

http://cellar.org/showpost.php?p=825015&postcount=136

[Griff]

Stoking fear is easier when you just make stuff up.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Griff

Stoking fear is easier when you just make stuff up.

OMG. Saddam has weapons of mass destruction again!!!

And Martians now have Curiousity.

[Griff]

Why do Martians hate America?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Because we have so many Venusians here.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Griff

Why do Martians hate America?

We killed their tourists in the 1930s with germs. Then defeated their allies, the Reds, in the 1980s. And are now dumping electronic trash all over their planet. Why would they not have Curiousity? They already have the Spirite. Once they get Oppurtunity, then expect a reprisal.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by tw

We killed their tourists in the 1930s with germs.

After they microwaved Americans! Those fuckers deserved it.