Iraq Mai Lai

[Pangloss62]

The warhawks never liked the comparison of the Iraq War to Vietnam, but now they may have to eat some crow.

I know that someone by now is calling what happened in Haditha an "Iraq Mai Lai." Just as conservatives hate it when people compare the gay marriage issue to the Civil Rights Movement, they also lambaste any comparison of the Iraq War with Vietnam. But you know what? It's a good comparison: Freaked out, stressed out soldiers don't know who is or isn't the enemy, their best buddies just got blown to bits, and they just go ballistic on anything that moves, like equally scared families in private homes, civilians, just trying to survive like the soldiers are. Believe me, this story is bad, bad news for W. et al. Just read the first two paragraphs from today's New York Times:

WASHINGTON, May 30 — A military investigator uncovered
evidence in February and March that contradicted repeated
claims by marines that Iraqi civilians killed in Haditha last
November were victims of a roadside bomb, according to a
senior military official in Iraq.

Among the pieces of evidence that conflicted with the marines'
story were death certificates that showed all the Iraqi victims
had gunshot wounds, mostly to the head and chest, the official said.
Uh oh.

So. Where did the NYT get this information? They said it was a "senior official," one who "...agreed to discuss the findings only after being promised anonymity."

They say "Lose lips sink ships," but when it's a ship of fools your sinking, it's a lot easier to leak some information to the press. We'll soon hear how breaking this story was "irresponsible" and "puts our soldiers at risk," but didn't the same paper run that story about "yellowcake" uranium? And that story was false!

[glatt]

Wonder if the justice department will go after this leaker?


I can understand why the soldiers did this. The murdered civilians probably didn't plant the bomb, but they also probably knew that the insurgents had put it there. They were probably sympathetic to the insurgency and were probably not sad to see the soldiers get hit. I bet they were scared though, as the bomb went off.

If I were a soldier, I would be frustrated and furious, and with the adrenaline pumping through my blood, it's not much of a stretch to take it to that next level, just to feel as though I was doing something to fight back.

I condemn the massacre for moral reasons. I also think it's a blunder that will only hurt us more. But this sort of thing is inevitable in a war.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

We'll soon hear how breaking this story was "irresponsible" and "puts our soldiers at risk"...

Somehow I don't think so. The reportage I'm hearing on this is that an Iraqi civil rights group took the story to Time Magazine, who took it to the military, who started an investigation. What's leaking is the results of the investigation...which will be made public anyway, probably about the time that charges (and from the sound of things there will be charges) are filed.

[Undertoad]

If you reach really hard for a narrative, you have to pound on it like a square peg into a round hole. 15000 Iraqi deaths in the first year become 100,000. 2,500 combat deaths has the same seriousness as 50,000. A supply delay of one day becomes a quagmire. The draft is just around the corner. The military is horribly and irretrievably broken and dishonorable.

As many as 500 villagers were killed at mai lai. You've just thrown them down the truth hole, and basically dishonored them to try to vainly make a point.

This message is in a small font and unreadable color to make another point... that font and color size have no bearing on the ability of your words to make a statement.

[Pangloss62]

Perhaps I should have left out "Vietnam," but my main point was to compare this Haditha episode to that of Mai Lai; that is, not so much the numbers of those killed but the psychology behind the killing. Things are either large or small only by comparison, so Iraq is not the same as Vietnam in terms of numbers, but in terms of soldier psychology, it's a good comparison.

Besides, do wars have to be HUGE before their victims deserve mention?

[Flint]

this is fun! but shouldn't this be in "nothingland" ???

[Undertoad]

I don't know exactly what the psychology of the Marines (not soldiers) was in this case; neither do you, and neither does the Times for that matter. They and you are drawing the narrative based on anonymous quotes.

Making leaps without understanding is part of hammering the narrative.

However, I'll go ahead and guess that the psychology of a team of Marines hit by a roadside bomb is far different from the psychology of a unit that massacres an entire village.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

However, I'll go ahead and guess that the psychology of a team of Marines hit by a roadside bomb is far different from the psychology of a unit that massacres an entire village.

You misspelled "that massacres an entire family".

[Undertoad]

Sorry.

[Pangloss62]

I didn't read the NYT today, but I don't think they discussed the psychology of the Marines in question in the article I quoted, nor did they invoke a Mai Lai analogy. I said "...that someone by now is calling what happened in Haditha an 'Iraq Mai Lai.'" A quick search will indeed indicate that fact, with various articles referring to the Haditha incident as "..being described as Iraq's "new Mai Lai." Not surprisingly AlJazeera invoked the Mai Lai analogy right away. Other editorialists are writing things like:

"Since the start of the terror wars, what we have been witnessing are a series of mini Mai Lais, thuggish statesmanship and the makings of prison states. Rarely has the sun sunk so low in the lands of the formerly free."

Liberals? Certainly. Inappropriate analogy? I guess that depends on who you talk/listen to. A Vietnam vet/colleague of mine saw the parallel, but he was not at Mai Lai. Whatever analogy, what happened was good for nobody.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

A Vietnam vet/colleague of mine saw the parallel, but he was not at Mai Lai. Whatever analogy, what happened was good for nobody.

My Lai was only a more severe example of what was normal in Vietnam. Everyone was the enemy. A shot innocent did not matter. They were gooks. Peers described how one on their chopper would just automatically shoot from the chopper a farmer for no reason - and no one said anything. It was situation normal.

Do you think for one minute that things have changed in Iraq? Do you watch documentaries where convoys routinely empty 50 cal ammo boxes shooting 'over heads' at anything that gets too near? A car maybe 2000 feet down a highway coming at the convoy. They shoot at it because, in Iraq, everyone is a potential enemy. This right out of a Frontline documentary maybe two years ago that also noted how the Baghdad to airport highway was routinely attacked (Remember the Italian hostage rescued only to be shot at by American soldiers on that highway? Such shooting has long been normal.)

Same mentality now is in Afghanistan where Taliban now controls maybe 50% of the country. That was obvious from posts here about a year or so ago. When a crowd in Kabul started getting threatening, American troops in a last convoy truck fleeing the scene fired directly into the crowd. This even from a former commander of the Northern Alliance whose car was destroyed by the American truck. A crash, he said, was not a fault of the driver. But Americans did fire on and kill at least four Afghan civilians, he said.

Don't fool yourself for one minute. They were just gooks. Iraq, in particular, is how Vietnam became a quagmire. Iraqis complain bitterly how often Americans shoot up cars only to keep Iraqis distant from any convoy. Why? Iraqis are the enemy as far as soldiers are now concerned. Deja vue Vietnam. Do you foolishly think Abu Ghriad was an exception? Torture represents an attitude of too many Americans who are at risk everywhere except in green zones.

The American occupation of Iraq has become so unpopular that even Basra (in the south) is now going violent like Baghdad; doing what was also once a peaceful Mosul. It does not help when American soldiers now regard every Iraqi as a potential enemy - and regularly spew 50 cal warning shoots (by the ammo box) during every urban convoy.

This is a same country that others here insist was safe. This is a country attacked on lies and therefore going the same way as Vietnam - because the American government even claims an Iraqi democratic government will solve these problems. Haditha is but the tip of an iceberg so large that even journalists rarely leave green zones. Iraq now so unsafe, despite domestic propaganda from Rush Limbaugh types, that American troops routinely fire 'warning shots'.

How out of control were those Marines in Haditha? Well a taxi was driving down the road. They shot the car and driver - no questions asked. He was only one of the 24 massacred. Shooting at any approaching car is now normal in Iraq. Is Haditha the exception? Not really. Even American commanding officers lied to cover up this massacre. Do you for one minute think this was the exception by a large group of American officers? Of course not. For so many to lie, this must be just another *event*.

This time, the situation was more flagrant. You have not one reason to think Iraq is any different than Vietnam. These massacres occurred for the same reasons. Reasons that start with the White House occupant (Nixon or George Jr) who lies in outright denial. 85% of all problems start with top management.

Massacres, international kidnapping, and torture are now acceptable behavior to so many Americans. Just another reason why there must be a smoking gun before ever entering into war.

[Pangloss62]

Well TW, I wouldn't argue with you about the lies and the how yesterday's "gooks" are today's...uh...towelheads? What other derogatory terms do they have for Iraqis?

Undertoad did not appreciate the Vietnam analogy, and seems to imply that people (including me to a partial extent) are using the Mai Lai narrative inaccurately. But most of his argument is one of scale, that Iraq is minor as compared to Vietnam. But what about the other issues?

Rationale For Preemptive Invasion

Planning For Post-Invasion

Failure to Secure and Control Vital Infrastructure

Failure to Consult Historians, Cultural Anthropologists, Regarding Ethnic Divisions (these are the ones saying "I told you so" today)

Of course all the above is moot if, say, 10 years from now the neocons domino theory of Middle East democracy holds true. If it does, I'll eat my crow too.

[xoxoxoBruce]

A military investigator uncovered evidence in February and March that contradicted repeated claims by marines that Iraqi civilians killed in Haditha last November were victims of a roadside bomb, according to a
senior military official in Iraq.

Indirectly, they apparently were.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by tw

My Lai was only a more severe example of what was normal in Vietnam. Everyone was the enemy. A shot innocent did not matter. They were gooks.

Well, I believe that now it goes deeper than that. I was watching some conservative talk show where the host was baiting the token liberal. The host wrapped his debate up into one question and said something to the effect of "Do you think that the insurgents are evil". The guest did not have time to explain his answer and said "no".

The host seemed very satisfied by this, as if he had established the morally superior position.

I had a few problems with the question, beginning with how it was phrased. There appear to be multiple insurgent groups in Iraq, not all of which engage in terror attacks against civilians. By lumping all insurgents together, the host was attempting to label all insurgents as terrorists.

On a larger scale, the danger of classifying a group as 'evil' is that it is a dehumanizing label. It's quite possible that the individuals who have abused prisoners have thought of them as 'evil', thus justifying extreme treatment. An 'evil' person can cease to be a person and in terms of moral self-justification of the torturer become something like a demon or imp, an object with no rights.

For all that some groups use terms like "Devil's Brigade", no army or insurgency has ever declared itself as evil. In fact, most wars are between armies which declare "Got mit uns" or something similar. In fact the greater the belief that one or both sides have in their divine mandate, the more brutal the conflict becomes.

The problem with the 'evil' label is that it is socially acceptable. The president of the US would never use a phrase like "towel head". However, he could and has declared nations or groups as 'evil'. In doing this, he has greenlighted their abuse.

[tw]

Is Haditha the exception? Not really. Even American commanding officers lied to cover up this massacre. Do you for one minute think this was the exception by a large group of American officers? Of course not. For so many to lie, this must be just another *event*.

From the BBC of 2 Jun 2006:

US probes new Iraq massacre claim
Video footage obtained by the BBC appears to challenge the US account of events in the town of Ishaqi in March.

The US said at the time that four people died during a raid, but Iraqi police said 11 were shot by US troops. ...

The Haditha incident and several others are being investigated by the Pentagon, according to US military sources.

Several others? BBC reports there are at least four Haditha type events under investigation.

However, the BBC's Ian Pannell in Baghdad says the move is likely to be greeted with cynicism by many Iraqis, as the troops have long been accused of deliberately targeting civilians. ...

According to the Americans, the building collapsed under heavy fire killing four people - a suspect, two women and a child.

But a report filed by Iraqi police accused US troops of rounding up and deliberately shooting 11 people in the house, including five children and four women, before blowing up the building.

The video tape obtained by the BBC shows a number of dead adults and children at the site with what our world affairs editor John Simpson says were clearly gunshot wounds.

How common is this unjustificed killing? BBC commentators say that virtually every Iraqi has a family member or friend who has suffered due to unjustified killings. Even the Iraqi Ambassador to the US claims his cousin was killed by Americans without justification. Let's not forget what we told the troops. Mission Accomplished. And so, just as in Vietnam, when the words don't hold true, then lying becomes situation normal at all lower levels.

Another 11 victims in Ishaqi - with coverup. And America does not torture people in Guantanamo either.