Are you a good person or a bad person?

[xoxoxoBruce]

OK Beestie, think on this from Der Spiegel
It's been a bitter cold winter in Europe.
Right wing groups are handing out hot soup to the homeless and needy. Good?
It's pork soup that Jews and Muslims can't eat. Bad?
They're doing this to support ethnic purity of Europe. Bad?
French police have made them stop giving soup to anyone. Good?
Sure gets cloudy when you take intent into it.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

It's pork soup that Jews and Muslims can't eat. Bad?

It is a bigger sin for an observant Jew to starve himself to death than to eat non-kosher food.

Since Islam follows the same dietary laws as the Jews, I would think this principle of life is the apex of their commandments as well.

However, if a Jew is being forced to bow before an idol, it is his responsibility to kill himself, if possible, so as not to do that act.

Originally Posted by dov

However, if a Jew is being forced to bow before an idol, it is his responsibility to kill himself, if possible, so as not to do that act.

Hmmm... So do you think this requirement is a good thing? I can understand it being labeled a "bad" action if someone bows before something that is spiritually wrong for them of their own free will. But if someone has a gun pointed to their head? So someone points a gun to my head and requires me to bow before a statue of Satan and I do it, while inwardly saying, "In your dreams, Satan, and you and I both know it!" Then I escape and live to do nothing but good deed for the rest of my life and worship whatever is the true right Being to worship. Would Jewish doctine still label me as "bad"?

What if I had the gun pointed to my head and I bowed to the idol which resulted in the deaths of a million people? Would I be more or less bad than in the first instance?

What if by bowing with the gun pointed at my head, I could SAVE the lives of a million people? Would Jewish doctrine require me to refuse and save my soul, if not my life, at the expense of a million other lives?

PS How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Originally Posted by marichiko

PS How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Under your circumstances, I would not think twice. In many areas of my life, I am a hypocrite. I crave ideals and rarely live up to them. I have more than one higher power, and the God of Abraham is one of them, they are all interconnected anyways, there is only one ONE. I bow to the almighty buck daily, it is an idol. I look in the mirror and see the centre of the universe, it is an idol. I have loved many women, and needed a couple, they were idols. Madison avenue are pros at idol making and I buy into a few, more than a few.

If I was ever in a position, where it was perfectly clear that it is a formal idol, a power that completely contradicts all my ideals, which I adhere to, and I know without a doubt the God of Abraham is with me, and some creature was aware of this, and in spite of this, my relationship with God, it attempts to make me spit in the face of God, I have the faith, not the intellect, to know, taking the bullet is my only choice. It is impossible to justify or explain, it would be beyond reason. Jews have something called a Nashama, a Jewish Soul. I could meet a stranger, and in no way know his or her religion, if he or she was Jewish or not, our Nashamas dance if he or she were Jewish. There is a connection and we both know. Similarly under the conditions you presented, it would not be up to me, it would be my Nashamas

Your discourse is interesting. Got silly around saving my life saves a million, or causes the death of a million people. Far Fetched. I chose to put aside those examples in my reply to you. I don’t know what to call them, drug induced fairy tales? (No offence meant). Tell me how in the world the death of one man could be responsible for the lives or deaths of a million people. Maybe JFK, Bobby, Martine Luther King or Malcolm X. I would say hypothetically if these men lived, millions of lives would have been saved as the direct result of their living.

Technically, there are no exceptions to the responsibility of a Jew being forced to bow to an idol.

I am not speaking for other Jews, just myself.