First strike and your out! - Page 5

Tobiasly · 07-11-2002, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sycamore
You're in the military? Very cool. What do you do?

Sorry, didn't mean to ignore you, this thread kinda dropped off my radar..

I'm a 2nd lieutenant in the Indiana Army National Guard. I'm currently the commander of a light infantry company, which just goes to show you how short this state is on officers

Actually, most of the company is in Bosnia right now, so there's a little less than a platoon left here. Half the commanders in my battalion, though, are lieutenants (although I'm the only butter bar).

Hopefullly after the rest of the guys get back, I can get assigned to a TOW company, because I'm Tired Of Walking!

headsplice · 07-12-2002, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Yet the government does presume to take away my rights to alter my consciousness as it sees fit. by spinningfetus

Again with the topic hijacking

. They're both related, I have choices about what I do to my body. I also have choices about what I do to others bodies.

Quote:

...cure for a social ill?

Nope, guns aren't that at all. Weapons, and the carrying and use thereof, are a way for me to stand up in a very public manner and say that I'm a responsible person, willing to take care of myself, and help those around me.

elSicomoro · 07-12-2002, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by headsplice
Again with the topic hijacking

Though not as bad as it used to be, you'll get used to the thread hijacking.

jaguar · 07-12-2002, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Weapons, and the carrying and use thereof, are a way for me to stand up in a very public manner and say that I'm a responsible person, willing to take care of myself, and help those around me.

You see hwre, we leave that job to trained professionals called police, thwy do such a good job - hey the rest of us don't need to do it for them. To answer maggie law enforcement is not just about cleaning up afterwards, doing that is effectively a deterent as well as having a presence on the streets, between the two they oddly enough are able to stop things before they happen.

MaggieL · 07-12-2002, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
You see hwre, we leave that job to trained professionals called police, thwy do such a good job - hey the rest of us don't need to do it for them. To answer maggie law enforcement is not just about cleaning up afterwards, doing that is effectively a deterent as well as having a presence on the streets, between the two they oddly enough are able to stop things before they happen.

That's a nice theory, and oh so charmingly presented. It probably sounded pretty good when they told it to you in school, too. (A government-run school? Same government that pays the cops, right?)

It's just such a darn shame that it doesn't actually work. Read Tony's numbers again, the cops aren't "stopping things before they happen", either here or in AUS. I'm not saying you don't need police. I'm saying what any cop will tell you: "We can't be everywhere."

jaguar · 07-12-2002, 08:19 PM

Well actually in the last year increased police presence thoughout the CBD here has made in one hellofa lot safer, you simply don't see the same stuff you used to - blantant drug dealing, agressive beggers, gangs etc, it really has made an improvment. Sure you can't be everywhere but the number of stations though, repsonse times and increased presences sure have had a big effect, there is allot more people in the CBD late at night now.

MaggieL · 07-12-2002, 09:37 PM

There's no question that increased police presence improves things.

But that doesn't speak to the point.

And what good does packing the Central Business District of Adilade with cops do for the rest of your country?
"Adelaide's CBD is in a very well-defined and delimited space of about one square mile..." (We have shopping malls bigger than that here, BTW...:-) )

You must know that the crime wasn't actually reduced, it was just relocated.

And will you still have all those cops after the next election? Or when people figure out how much it costs? Even if so, you can't afford to do that everywhere; it was done in the CBD because the business owners complained. There's a "Central Services District" in downtown Philadelphia, where the business owners pay extra taxes to get better police protection and sanitation. But it's not a general solution.

jaguar · 07-13-2002, 01:43 AM

Melbourne, not Adelaide is where i live. Melbourne's CBD is equally defined, but larger and i'm encompassing surrounding complexes such as southbank, crown casino and the new museaum complex in that (just for refrence if you feel like pulling up more maps) as well.
We also have shopping malls around the same size(Southland, i live near it, its a horrible place, all big shopping centers are). Moving on....

The presence is part of a permanent expansion of the Victoria Police Force, the patrols and new stations are permanent. Put it this way, there are less than 5 suburbs in Melbourne I would not feel confidant about walking though at 2am alone. You have to remember for a start that most of Australia is basically empty wasteland, there isn’t much to patrol out there, I think about 10 cops do 3/4 of NT, an area about the size of Texas. I'm not generally a big fan of cops but their responsiveness to movement of crime, hotspots etc has been good, the train service now has regular patrols later at night too which has had a visible effect on vandalism and on flat numbers of people, it really has made a difference (I’m a very regular user of the late trains here so..).

MaggieL · 07-13-2002, 09:10 AM

Still, the point is that concentrated police presence does not reduce crime, it relocates it. I'm sure there's lots of inhabited territory in AU that is neither bush nor a central business district....and that's where your crime is right now.

A "permanant" presence is permanent until a politician decides to change it. It was created in response to pressure, and it can be uncreated just as easily, although probably with much less publicity. The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away.

jaguar · 07-13-2002, 09:24 AM

THe suburbs? I thought i covered that, sure there is crime, but there are few areas that i'd classify dodgy, very few in fact. THe main source of allot of the CBD crime, herion use has largely dissipeared, and with it much of the crime.

Undertoad · 07-13-2002, 08:52 PM

Just in time comes this story which indicates that a UN study shows that England+Wales are now ahead of all industrialized countries in crime.

Leus · 07-31-2002, 04:51 PM

It would be interesting if anyone can present actual data and comparisons between the principal causes of deaths in countries where gun control laws are different. In my country (Chile, South America) the first cause of death are car accidents. We have pretty strong laws regarding guns; ie, nobody is allowed to carry one, and only under certain circumstances you are allowed to have one in your home (psi tests, etc)

We have a lot of crimes, but we are glad there is difficult to get any weapon. If a police found that you have a weapon you are in deep trouble.

Regards, and sorry for my english

Undertoad · 07-31-2002, 10:52 PM

Leus, your English is fine. Welcome... I've enjoyed your country's wines!

US causes of death top ten:

1 Heart disease (30%)
2 Cancer (21%)
3 Stroke (cerebrovascular disease) (7%)
4 Lung disease (5.2%)
5 Accidents (all types) (4.1%)
6 Diabetes (2.7%)
7 Pneumonia (2.5%)
8 Alzheimer's disease (1.9%)
9 Kidney disease (1.5%)
10 Liver disease (1.3%)

(All other causes make 20%)
(murder is low on the list, say 0.6%)

07-12-2002, 08:19 PM	#66
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Well actually in the last year increased police presence thoughout the CBD here has made in one hellofa lot safer, you simply don't see the same stuff you used to - blantant drug dealing, agressive beggers, gangs etc, it really has made an improvment. Sure you can't be everywhere but the number of stations though, repsonse times and increased presences sure have had a big effect, there is allot more people in the CBD late at night now. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-12-2002, 09:37 PM	#67
MaggieL in the Hour of Scampering Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Jeffersonville PA (15 mi NW of Philadelphia) Posts: 4,060	There's no question that increased police presence improves things. But that doesn't speak to the point. And what good does packing the Central Business District of Adilade with cops do for the rest of your country? "Adelaide's CBD is in a very well-defined and delimited space of about one square mile..." (We have shopping malls bigger than that here, BTW...:-) ) You <b>must</b> know that the crime wasn't actually <b>reduced</b>, it was just <b>relocated.</b> And will you still have all those cops after the next election? Or when people figure out how much it costs? Even if so, you can't afford to do that everywhere; it was done in the CBD because the business owners complained. There's a "Central Services District" in downtown Philadelphia, where the business owners pay extra taxes to get better police protection and sanitation. But it's not a general solution. __________________ "Neither can his Mind be thought to be in Tune,whose words do jarre; nor his reason In frame, whose sentence is preposterous..."

07-13-2002, 01:43 AM	#68
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Melbourne, not Adelaide is where i live. Melbourne's CBD is equally defined, but larger and i'm encompassing surrounding complexes such as southbank, crown casino and the new museaum complex in that (just for refrence if you feel like pulling up more maps) as well. We also have shopping malls around the same size(Southland, i live near it, its a horrible place, all big shopping centers are). Moving on.... The presence is part of a permanent expansion of the Victoria Police Force, the patrols and new stations are permanent. Put it this way, there are less than 5 suburbs in Melbourne I would not feel confidant about walking though at 2am alone. You have to remember for a start that most of Australia is basically empty wasteland, there isn’t much to patrol out there, I think about 10 cops do 3/4 of NT, an area about the size of Texas. I'm not generally a big fan of cops but their responsiveness to movement of crime, hotspots etc has been good, the train service now has regular patrols later at night too which has had a visible effect on vandalism and on flat numbers of people, it really has made a difference (I’m a very regular user of the late trains here so..). __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain Last edited by jaguar; 07-13-2002 at 01:46 AM.

07-13-2002, 09:10 AM	#69
MaggieL in the Hour of Scampering Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Jeffersonville PA (15 mi NW of Philadelphia) Posts: 4,060	Still, the point is that concentrated police presence does not reduce crime, it relocates it. I'm sure there's lots of inhabited territory in AU that is neither bush nor a central business district....and that's where your crime is right now. A "permanant" presence is permanent until a politician decides to change it. It was created in response to pressure, and it can be uncreated just as easily, although probably with much less publicity. The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away. __________________ "Neither can his Mind be thought to be in Tune,whose words do jarre; nor his reason In frame, whose sentence is preposterous..."

07-13-2002, 09:24 AM	#70
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	THe suburbs? I thought i covered that, sure there is crime, but there are few areas that i'd classify dodgy, very few in fact. THe main source of allot of the CBD crime, herion use has largely dissipeared, and with it much of the crime. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-13-2002, 08:52 PM	#71
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Just in time comes this story which indicates that a UN study shows that England+Wales are now ahead of all industrialized countries in crime.

07-31-2002, 04:51 PM	#72
Leus Abecedarian Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chile Posts: 179	firearms... It would be interesting if anyone can present actual data and comparisons between the principal causes of deaths in countries where gun control laws are different. In my country (Chile, South America) the first cause of death are car accidents. We have pretty strong laws regarding guns; ie, nobody is allowed to carry one, and only under certain circumstances you are allowed to have one in your home (psi tests, etc) We have a lot of crimes, but we are glad there is difficult to get any weapon. If a police found that you have a weapon you are in deep trouble. Regards, and sorry for my english

07-31-2002, 10:52 PM	#73
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Leus, your English is fine. Welcome... I've enjoyed your country's wines! US causes of death top ten: 1 Heart disease (30%) 2 Cancer (21%) 3 Stroke (cerebrovascular disease) (7%) 4 Lung disease (5.2%) 5 Accidents (all types) (4.1%) 6 Diabetes (2.7%) 7 Pneumonia (2.5%) 8 Alzheimer's disease (1.9%) 9 Kidney disease (1.5%) 10 Liver disease (1.3%) (All other causes make 20%) (murder is low on the list, say 0.6%)

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