Nuclear Iran is now the world's #1 problem

[Amnesiac42]

yeah, what makes me mad about the UN is that no one ever stands up to the united states. it's like this new form of imperialism that's more about absorbing other economies into our own, consequently making them dependant on ours, than say, just walking in and saying "guess what we're taking it."

i saw this guy on cspan at like three in the morning when i was throwing up from really bad food poisoning, and he was talking about how you can literally draw a circle on a 2 demensional map of the globe connected by all of the major players in the world economy and all of the countries in the middle are the ones that they crap on, basically, and oddly enough contain most of the resources. and the problem in the middle east is that their econominc output is equal to the input, so they're perfectly self sustaining. of course the problem is that we want them to play ball with us, and they pretty much hate us for it, among other things. so setting up a democracy there, and hoping it will spread, is our foot in the door to finally getting some of that.

so all of this said, i wonder... we go into iraq, claiming that they have WMD and plan on attacking us. this turns out to be wrong. so then we claim our actions are justified because we're liberating the citizens, which i would agree we are but think that's a pretty sneaky and shitty excuse. now, we set up a democracy over there, and we're hoping this will spread?

my question, is it right to force another nation to change it's government & relations specifically in order to serve the interests of another?

the "other interests" being that america's goal (i'm assuming) is to consolidate world powers under one roof (obviously america's). which begs the question, what then? would the world really be a more peaceful, happier, free place? or quite the opposite?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Amnesiac42

my question, is it right to force another nation to change it's government & relations specifically in order to serve the interests of another?

One nation cannot force democracy on another. The second nation must literally 'earn' democracy to appreciate its value. IOW, Iraq may need a civil war before it will appreciate a viable government. Currently, we are trying to force democracy upon them. Therefore the people will never have a respect for and therefore fight to preserve such a government.

Either we pull out leaving a threat of civil war is so scary that the Iraqi people get serious about government. Or the Iraqi people fight that civil war, like Lebanon, like Somalia, like Rwanda, like Cambodia, etc until they come to a more logical conclusion. That mindset - the purpose of war - is why wars are fought only to end the conflict with a political settlement.

Wars are fought to change a political mindset between warring parties. If Iraqis really want a democracy, then we could pull out and they would rise up to support a democratic government. Why do we not pull out? Because the people still don't have a respect for that type of government. People have so little respect that even the number of functional Iraqi battalions decreases. Then when in combat, whole Iraqi battalions disintegrate. Many troops just go home. If we pull out, the people may resort to the kind of government they really want - government by chaos.

Eventually government by chaos breaks down into a demand for a stable government - one the people admit they finally want. That may be a democracy. It may even be a dictatorial or communist type government. But they must first suffer enough before they will finally agree. And unfortunately, that is the purpose of war.

To create a government by military occupation, well, how many decades have we been in Haiti? How many decades was Syria in Lebanon? Are you prepared for a thousand American deaths every year for over ten years in Iraq with no promise that the people will even want a democracy ten years later? This is America's current mindset. Like it or not, we intend to militarily occupy Iraq for about ten years. Our leaders don't have the balls to admit this. And yet that is a well proven lesson of history. Try to impose a democracy? It did not work in Vietnam because the people did not want the corrupt government we were trying to impose.

What is worse, George Jr also intends to fix Iran. The ongoing plan to invade Iran in 2006 may be delayed - because finally a very slim majority of Americans are learning the folly of the Rumsfeld, Cheney, Urbane Guerilla mindset. Solutions by blind force do not work - as even France is currently learning with their civil unrest. Blind force only makes enemies. One cannot force a government upon a people - especially when one does not believe in nation building.

Only a fool believes 'might makes right'. And yet that is really the reason why we are imposing a govenment in Iraq. We are so blind as to even believe the majority of Iraqi welcomed us.