10/24/2005: Dog becomes shark bait

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Do you believe plants can feel pain, or that dogs can't?

If you are asking if I believe plants have a nervous system similar to mammals, then no; I didn't miss that much of biology class.

If you are attempting to set up a hierarchy of worthiness based upon how much a person empathizes with something then that is what I am referring to in my earlier post.

I find it pretty awful to use a live animal as bait on many many levels. But if you want to take the opinion for a moment that there is a hierarchy to creatures, and humans are somewhere in the top 5%, then it is probably more destructive to the people who are using animals as bait than it is to the animals being used as bait. After all, isn't it part of the argument that we humans have consciousness? And wouldn't it be taking a step down for a human to behave in such an uncompassionate way?

If compassion is a worthy trait of humans then isn't it somewhat false to say: "well, I have compassion for this creature because it is a lot like me, but bugs, well, bugs are kind of a nuisance so I don't really care about bugs. And while we're at it, fish don't really think, I mean scientists have proven that, so it is okay to just kill them. And vegetables can't run away, so they must have been meant to be eaten." etc.

So is it a conditional compassion and if so, based upon whose value set? At one end you've got the Jains who filter their water so they won't harm a single microbe (or so it's been alleged; I don't know any Jains) Most cellarites will agree that is pretty wacky. At the other end you've got any number of genocidal maniacs.


I don't have a special fondness for dogs or shark hunters, I'm just wary of the type of thinking that projects personal values onto creatures at large. The "live dogs make good shark bait" coin has two sides.

[xoxoxoBruce]

The "live dogs make good shark bait" coin has two sides.

Yes it does..... couldn't and shouldn't.
I couldn't and they shouldn't.
Because I say so.
Because dogs are affectionate.
Plants are not affectionate.
I think my first wife was a plant.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

If compassion is a worthy trait of humans then isn't it somewhat false to say: "well, I have compassion for this creature because it is a lot like me, but bugs, well, bugs are kind of a nuisance so I don't really care about bugs. And while we're at it, fish don't really think, I mean scientists have proven that, so it is okay to just kill them. And vegetables can't run away, so they must have been meant to be eaten." etc.

I didn't come close to saying that. I said that I, personally, have an emotional attachment to dogs/cats. I admit that. I, strangely, do not have such an attachment to sharks. I FEAR the sea and all the creatures in it. Fear is not a good base for love. I said I am not bothered by live minnows used for bait and it is because I do not think they have a consciousness--I should have made that clear. What I said is true for me. It's not false at all. I didn't say it was true for everyone, obviously. It's not true for you, or the shark baiters.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

If you are asking if I believe plants have a nervous system similar to mammals, then no; I didn't miss that much of biology class.

No, I am asking whether you think plants can feel pain. I'm just curious; I do know people who think that plants have some sort of consciousness.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

No, I am asking whether you think plants can feel pain. I'm just curious; I do know people who think that plants have some sort of consciousness.

I read "The secret life of plants" back in the 70's. A lot of experiments were done with plants being hooked up to polygraph machines as I recall. There was one that stands out in my memory:
Several plants were set up in a room and a series of people walked through the room, one at a time, past the plants. One of the people was instructed to pick a plant at random and tear it out of its pot and rip it to pieces.

Later the people again filed past the plants and when the plant killer came into the room the machines went berserk.

I would like to see that experiment reproduced on NOVA.

I'm not sure what I believe, today when I went out onto my lawn and saw that one of my filthy neighbors let his dog shit on my lawn, you know I was thinking about using him as shark bait, to hell with his dog.

But that's just me being a backsliding buddhist.