Finding the Devil in New Orleans

[tw]

Review the numbers. Katrina was a category 5 storm, predicted to hit days in advance, and to strike a city not constructed to withstand anything above category 3. So why was the city not fully evacuated? For example, the prision was still full when Katrina struck. This could only happen if even city and state officials were in denial. No matter what you had heard, actions are the details that matter. Actions by local and state officials were, instead, for a category 3 storm. A category 5 storm will strike in or near your major city? 10,000 National Guardsman would have been called up and ready to move within hours after the storm. That being only one of so many actions necessary for a category 5 storm that everyone knew was coming.

Currently many victims have seen no food or water for 3 days now. Response has been that slow. Even worse, because so many people stayed, now others will die simply because too many people require rescue.

I am struck by the number of cars piled up in towns where all cars should have left. New Orleans parking lots also have so many cars. Again, damning details. Clearly the regional response to a category 5 storm was denial - when time, information and transport made it easy for so many to leave.

Meanwhile, watch reports for engineering information. New Orleans was only designed for a category 3 storm. Worse, its levees were constructed in a manner that was a disaster just waiting to happen. Not just that levees were too low. Even worse, these levees were not engineered. There were no second levee or levees that partitioned a city - no backup sysetm. Kludge may be a better definitioin of how levees were constructed. Kludge may also describe its pumping system. Kludge apparently was the city's plans for dealing with a disaster that everyone knew would happen sooner or later. Emotional denial is how so many in LA, MS, and AL may have responded to the numbers - category 5.

Katrina lost its category 5 status before stricking. New Orleans also did not suffer a direct strike. And yet the city is suffering from too many people to rescue; too many possible dead. Had the 'powers that be' responded to a Category 5 storm, then New Orleans would only be a flood - just another disaster. That denial is now why people have died AND why rescue is overwhelmed. A city that took category 5 seriously would have even emptied the prision. Numbers - a city only designed to withstand a category 3 storm - are that damning. The city's response suggests why so many remained and why the National Guard was not moving within hours after the storm ended.

At least FEMA this time responded per its mandate. Yet one must temper sympathy for New Orleans. Their worst problems are directly traceable to denial. Flooding is secondary to a problem created by man - they did not leave. Katrina was a category 5 storm that threatened a city only designed for category 3. Clearly logic was lost on Bourbon Street - beginning years ago. Those details such as a full prision and parking lots with so many cars suggest the real devil.

[dar512]

You know, tw, you make this stuff sound like a great revelation, but it's not.

The truth is that all people are like this to one level or another. It's just that organizations tend to represent the lowest common denominator so this is what comes out.

When it comes right down to it everyone is a Cleopatra -- Queen of Denial.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by dar512

You know, tw, you make this stuff sound like a great revelation, but it's not.

I think that's the tragedy. The Cleopatras won.

[LabRat]

Originally Posted by dar512

You know, tw, you make this stuff sound like a great revelation, but it's not.

The truth is that all people are like this to one level or another. It's just that organizations tend to represent the lowest common denominator so this is what comes out.

When it comes right down to it everyone is a Cleopatra -- Queen of Denial.

This is just another example of doing it the easy way vs. the right way. It just happens to be on a HUGE scale. Coulda woulda shoulda. Maybe now people will learn that it's worth doing it the right way from the beginning...but I doubt it. People knock the midwest, but I'll stay as long as I can.

[tw]

Originally Posted by dar512

You know, tw, you make this stuff sound like a great revelation, but it's not.

The truth is that all people are like this to one level or another. It's just that organizations tend to represent the lowest common denominator so this is what comes out.

A child can be in denial. A parent cannot. A crewman can be in denial. The ship's Captain cannot. A citizen can be in denial. The elected leadership cannot. And yet the symptoms in New Orleans strongly suggest leadership that was in denial. Denial is not acceptable behavior anytime anywhere one is in charge.

Denial murdered seven Challenger astronauts. Shame is that same denial then killed seven Columbia astronauts. Do you find denial acceptable human behavior for your pilot while inside a passenger jet at 35,000 feet?

[dar512]

Originally Posted by tw

Denial murdered seven Challenger astronauts. Shame is that same denial then killed seven Columbia astronauts. Do you find denial acceptable human behavior for your pilot while inside a passenger jet at 35,000 feet?

No. I didn't say it was right or good. But it will happen. People are human and even those in positions of responsibility will sometimes cross their fingers and hope for the best.

Here's the other thing. Those in the government are responsible to the people they represent. Do you really think that the people of NO would have been willing to raise their taxes in order to pay for better protection from the storm and the sea? Shoot. You can't even get people to pay for local school bonds to keep their schools in repair. "People get the government they deserve."

[tw]

Originally Posted by chronos

I've been a consultant for years and I've gone into hundreds of environments where I've been stunned that they still run with how badly they've been engineered and patched together. At first I blamed the management for not authorizing the efforts needed to fix everything. I've since learned that it is so easy to come in after the fact and say how things SHOULD have been done to deal with the current situation. This view doesn't take into account the growth and demands every step along the way. People make the best decisions they can with the information AND funding they have. As they grow to meet larger demands they add things piecemeal which adds to the hodgepodge nature of the environment.

Originally Posted by dar512

Do you really think that the people of NO would have been willing to raise their taxes in order to pay for better protection from the storm and the sea? Shoot. You can't even get people to pay for local school bonds to keep their schools in repair. "People get the government they deserve."

Both quotes invent straw men; reply to things neither posted nor relevant to this thread. At no place or at no time did anyone suggest making New Orleans a category 5 city. In fact the US Army Corp of Engineer in charge of those levees said they only built those levees, intentionally, to withstand a category 3 storm. The levees are what they were intended to be. How then does chronos and dar512 change this into "installing Category 5 protection for New Orleans"?

New Orleans, whether due to 'hodge podge' engineering or due to superior design, was only rated for a Category 3 storm. A point that will be repeated because so many posters did not grasp it. Katrina was a Cat 5 storm. It was known to be a Cat 5 storm days previously, it was a very large storm (about 400 miles diameter), it was approaching slowly and as predicted, and it was coming right at New Orleans. So where did anyone say anything about fixing the levees? A cat 5 storm striking a cat 3 city does not even require an IQ of 80 to comprehend. The levees would fail. No one should have been in that town. And yet the number of cars now underwater demonstrates how many people still did not leave. People died because the family decision maker did not get everyone in the car and get "the hell out of Dodge". The person whose job is not to be in denial, instead, did not do his job. Did not make what was an obvious decision.

Furthermore, city and state officials response, knowing full well that it was a cat 5 storm, was to even not evacuate the prison.

Meanwhile, in an interview with a person who did a disaster study for this situation, it was well known that many people would not have transportation to get out of Dodge. So where were the lines of buses days previously to remove those people? Americans whose job it was to not be in denial were, apparently, in so much denial as to even leave all prisoners - many hundreds - maybe thousands - in the prison!

You tell me where this is representative of being responsible. No one suggested even for one minute that the levees should be fixed. That is a classic example of reading for what one wants to see. Let me make it woefully clearer. This city was only protected for a category 3 storm. Katrina was a category 5. Why will it take a week to rescue everyone? Why will people die from dehydration on their own roofs? Why are people who should be evacuated from hospitals, instead, may die. Too many people stayed when even government officials, by their actions, did not take Katrina seriously. Now there are not enough rescue people and machines to save all those lives.

I have pity on the poor Director of FEMA. Even his boss can't grasp a basic fact. George Jr today said that no one expected the levees to fail. Bullshit, dic licking, mother raper, ass hole. Do we let the President of the United State be that cunt licking dumb? Yes. How does the director of FEMA do his job when even his own boss is that pathetically naive. Everyone ... everyone ... everyone knew a category 5 storm was going to breach the levees. Everyone with minimal intelligence.

There is no way around that fact. Katrina was a Category 5 storm threatening a city was only intended to survive a Cat 3 storm. Why did city officials act in denial? Therein lies proof, again, of the well proven concept: 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. Even George Jr is in denial days after the disaster.

Who voted for these people?

[dar512]

Originally Posted by tw

Both quotes invent straw men<snip>

Note to tw. Learn to read English. 'Here's the other thing' means I'm changing the topic slightly.
Besides which -

Originally Posted by tw

Unfortunately too many want to be politically correct rather than ask the hard and necessary questions such as 'why did the dikes break so easily',

This sure looks like you advocated spending more money on the levees to me.

[tw]

Originally Posted by tw
Unfortunately too many want to be politically correct rather than ask the hard and necessary questions such as 'why did the dikes break so easily',

Originally Posted by dar512

This sure looks like you advocated spending more money on the levees to me.

The obvious and accurate answer to that question, "why did the dikes break so easily". Because water was higher than the dikes were designed for - as predicted. I did not answer the question because (and I was mistaken) the answer was woefully obvious. Furthermore where the dike broke, resources to finish the reconstruction were reportedly held back for two years. The dike sat unfinished for two years. Something about needing money elsewhere (Iraq).

Further information. Once water gets over that type of dike, earthen material in some places washes away quickly. Just another part to the answer of, "why did the dikes break so easily".

I find it appalling you would immediately assume the GM mentality of 'throw more money at it'. Solution starts by asking product oriented questions. What can it do? What was it designed for? Was it properly constructed? In this case, dikes broke because the water was too high - as was predicted for any storm above Category 3. As what everyone except our illustrious leader seems to have known.

BTW, do you think New Orleans residents pay for those dikes? Of course not. We do. Dike construction and enhancements cause no tax increases in New Orleans. New dikes mean a larger federal debt - sell more bonds. Money. Something that an MBA throws like a grenade to solve problems. Money should have never appeared in your answer to "why did the dikes break so easily".